Extreme warp and light lag

[whswhs]

I would not worry about teleporting blindly into a star of any kind. The volume of the sun, an above average star, is about 10^(-21) cubic light years. If stars are space a few light years apart, the volume of space taken up by stars, or even close enough to them to be hazardous to occupy, is negligible. There is effectively no risk. You are in vastly more danger any time you travel by car, or even airplane.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would not worry about teleporting blindly into a star of any kind. The volume of the sun, an above average star, is about 10^(-21) cubic light years. If stars are space a few light years apart, the volume of space taken up by stars, or even close enough to them to be hazardous to occupy, is negligible. There is effectively no risk. You are in vastly more danger any time you travel by car, or even airplane.

Yes, the chance of hitting a star at random by blindly jumping would be lower than trillions elevated to trillions to one. The probability would be lower than trying to hit an arrow from Earth's orbit into a specific single atom on the Moon, given how ungodly vast astronomical distances are.

But that's not the point of it all, the point is why any of it would matter if you could just A) try again or B) never try it again because Cthulhu keeps devouring all your probes and thus you never get the chance to verify your suppositions

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

So, you are basically saying that our real life astrophysics is simply outright wrong, or badly incomplete for the model of your in game universe. So why are you asking astrophysics questions, if what we believe in about the universe has no correlation to how your in-game universe works?

"Isn't always right" and "Is outright useless" are two different suppositions. All models are wrong... but some are useful. I'd take his assertions to mean things typically adhere to the Standard Model, but there are some things (notably, the superscience stuff that's bouncing around) that do not. Which... is kinda the default for science fiction that isn't 100% hard, really - things typically work the way they do in our own experiences, but in some notable cases (the One Miracle for some settings, rampant widespread superscience in others) they do not.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Yes, the chance of hitting a star at random by blindly jumping would be lower than trillions elevated to trillions to one. The probability would be lower than trying to hit an arrow from Earth's orbit into a specific single atom on the Moon, given how ungodly vast astronomical distances are.

But that's not the point of it all, the point is why any of it would matter if you could just A) try again or B) never try it again because Cthulhu keeps devouring all your probes and thus you never get the chance to verify your suppositions

The post that I was responded to said that one option was that you could "Get toasted for jumping in a Star, Black Hole etc". That's the point I was addressing. If my comment is beside the point, then it seems as if your original statement has to have been beside the point to. But you took the trouble to make it, which suggests that the issue didn't seem beside the point to you.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The post that I was responded to said that one option was that you could "Get toasted for jumping in a Star, Black Hole etc". That's the point I was addressing. If my comment is beside the point, then it seems as if your original statement has to have been beside the point to. But you took the trouble to make it, which suggests that the issue didn't seem beside the point to you.

Im sorry, I didnt make myself clear. I was trying to explain this for the point of view of RPG mechanics. The whole point of throwing the dice is to introduce an element of uncertanty, upon which the end result is unclear. If I somehow have "Cosmic: +quazillion% - Always hit the eyes, no resistance, no defense" I dont throw the dice, I just describe the results.

The ONLY purpose of throw dices in this scenario is if "critical failure? Geez... Sorry, you got swalled by Black Hole/Devoured by Cthulhu" or whatever. If the only thing that hapoens is "ok, so now you're 10.734 parsecs from your mark. Jump again. Now you are 53 parsecs away. Jump again. Got it", why roll at all? Just say "you get there in 3 jumps". If there are no consequences whatsoever to the action, what's the purpose of all of this?

And then we go back to the beggining - exploring all the intrinsicacies of having a universe with "jump" or "warping" or "hyperdrivr" FTL travel, considering that there would be a light lag of the perceptions of the state of the universe (or galaxy at the very least), and the impacts this would have on "galactic culture". OP believes that to not be well explored or represented, but I just simply dont consider it realistic, because what I believe it to be most realistic would be "hyperdriving" civilizations sending hundreds, thousands, millions of probes, and mapping the "real" universe instead of what the lights of the stars indicate in our skies. And thus, when they decide to "jump", they are NOT rellying on faulty calculations from afar. Therefore, the "has already been solved" solution seems to be the more realistic to me.

If not, and the Chutlhu Pantheon just devourers any jumper that doesnt got it right in the first go, no civilization would be able to go too far beyond their solar systems, and thus the possibility of the killer frogs becomes moot regradless.

Also, the "cosmic awareness" of "5D perception sense" for his FTL Telescopic Sense, that was his initial question, would pretty much defeat the whole idea behind this entire thought process, so that's why Im confused about where will all of this lead to.

Unless there's something else Im not seeing in this picture.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

My question in the OP is actually "Now what would be necessary to get around that lack of information about where a stellar body is now?" Resolving that makes the warper omniscient about every body in the sky and that can become problematic.

Not really how warp works. You don't need to know where the stellar body is now, because you aren't teleporting to a chunk of space containing a stellar body. You are teleporting to a stellar body itself. You are going to your frame of reference (the point of origin) to a frame of reference defined by the star, where-ever it now is. That doesn't mean you know where it is. If someone warped the whole star to Andromeda a thousand years ago, you'll just be a bit confused when you arrive.

How does a galactic civilisation protect itself from planet cracking, nova bombing terrorist frogs if the Universe permits exact location despite light lag?

The farther you go the more impossible precise location is. Particularly if you are just teleporting to "somewhere near that star I see"

[Inky]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Im sorry, I didnt make myself clear. I was trying to explain this for the point of view of RPG mechanics. The whole point of throwing the dice is to introduce an element of uncertanty, upon which the end result is unclear. If I somehow have "Cosmic: +quazillion% - Always hit the eyes, no resistance, no defense" I dont throw the dice, I just describe the results.

The ONLY purpose of throw dices in this scenario is if "critical failure? Geez... Sorry, you got swalled by Black Hole/Devoured by Cthulhu" or whatever. If the only thing that hapoens is "ok, so now you're 10.734 parsecs from your mark. Jump again. Now you are 53 parsecs away. Jump again. Got it", why roll at all? Just say "you get there in 3 jumps". If there are no consequences whatsoever to the action, what's the purpose of all of this?

If you want the PCs to be exploring and finding out how things work, the idea of homing in on the star over several jumps does work. And the OP says this one is like that. In a lot of campaigns playing out the repeated jumps might be just a waste of time, but in this one it would be the PCs jump, land somewhere near but not at the star, and you tell them things about what they can see. A planet, an astronomical phenomenon (maybe one that explains why their calculations have been off, allowing them to level up the accuracy of their Warp), an abandoned spacecraft with advanced technology, if they're unlucky a space-god or nova frog that they have to hide from! Travel in a game is only a waste of time if you don't expect to see anything relevant along the way. This sounds like it might not be one of those scenarios.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

And then we go back to the beggining - exploring all the intrinsicacies of having a universe with "jump" or "warping" or "hyperdrivr" FTL travel, considering that there would be a light lag of the perceptions of the state of the universe (or galaxy at the very least), and the impacts this would have on "galactic culture". OP believes that to not be well explored or represented, but I just simply dont consider it realistic, because what I believe it to be most realistic would be "hyperdriving" civilizations sending hundreds, thousands, millions of probes, and mapping the "real" universe instead of what the lights of the stars indicate in our skies. And thus, when they decide to "jump", they are NOT rellying on faulty calculations from afar. Therefore, the "has already been solved" solution seems to be the more realistic to me.

If not, and the Chutlhu Pantheon just devourers any jumper that doesnt got it right in the first go, no civilization would be able to go too far beyond their solar systems, and thus the possibility of the killer frogs becomes moot regradless.

Also, the "cosmic awareness" of "5D perception sense" for his FTL Telescopic Sense, that was his initial question, would pretty much defeat the whole idea behind this entire thought process, so that's why Im confused about where will all of this lead to.

Unless there's something else Im not seeing in this picture.

That is puzzling, but I may have found an explanation - by accident, while looking back at the beginning of the thread to see who started the "frogs" thing :-D

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

I have things I want to reveal to the players about the nature of the Universe they inhabit and have them note and investigate the anomalies they find while warping about. My question in the OP is actually "Now what would be necessary to get around that lack of information about where a stellar body is now?" Resolving that makes the warper omniscient about every body in the sky and that can become problematic. How does a galactic civilisation protect itself from planet cracking, nova bombing terrorist frogs if the Universe permits exact location despite light lag? I have answers for that baked into the setting but I am interested in examining the ways that can give exact locations in GURPS and then I will work on ways the rules can confound that or make setting specific rulings.

So do you have any thoughts on Mr Stoddard's answer "Perception or knowledge not limited by the speed of light." What would be your go to advantage?

That sounds rather as if what the OP is asking is "What are some ways that other aliens might get around the light-lag problem, so that I can either ban those abilities from my setting or write in precautions that the galactic civilisation has taken against that?"

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Inky

I
That sounds rather as if what the OP is asking is "What are some ways that other aliens might get around the light-lag problem,"

He needs to define his problem. If the Warper is going to a position near what he "sees" there should be little or no light lag problem. The Warper can't be using "Blind Only" because no system of direct vision or even a device that emulates, FTL or not will gve you the co-ordinates you'd need for Blind Only.

Warp to what you see or Warp to a set of co-ordinates but you can't logically end up with the worst of both worlds.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Inky

If you want the PCs to be exploring and finding out how things work, the idea of homing in on the star over several jumps does work. And the OP says this one is like that. In a lot of campaigns playing out the repeated jumps might be just a waste of time, but in this one it would be the PCs jump, land somewhere near but not at the star, and you tell them things about what they can see. A planet, an astronomical phenomenon (maybe one that explains why their calculations have been off, allowing them to level up the accuracy of their Warp), an abandoned spacecraft with advanced technology, if they're unlucky a space-god or nova frog that they have to hide from! Travel in a game is only a waste of time if you don't expect to see anything relevant along the way. This sounds like it might not be one of those scenarios.

That's what Im asking, that's why Im confused. Does he wants his players to make galactic tourism with their Warp, is that it? If it is, that's totally fine, and I can get that idea. "Yeah, and you jump, but look! Your divine super brain realizes something is off... And using the gazillions CPs you spent on IQ 100 and astronavigation 200 plus 5d sense, you're able to calculate that you missed your target by 528 parsecs... And now you realize that the universal model is wrong, and instead there's some other force beyond dark matter and dark energy at play here..."

I'd be totally fine with that explanation. But that's what I still havent figured it out, if THIS is his plan, if this is his intention with it, because it's still not clear to me.

Originally Posted by Inky

That sounds rather as if what the OP is asking is "What are some ways that other aliens might get around the light-lag problem, so that I can either ban those abilities from my setting or write in precautions that the galactic civilisation has taken against that?"

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

He needs to define his problem. If the Warper is going to a position near what he "sees" there should be little or no light lag problem. The Warper can't be using "Blind Only" because no system of direct vision or even a device that emulates, FTL or not will gve you the co-ordinates you'd need for Blind Only.

Warp to what you see or Warp to a set of co-ordinates but you can't logically end up with the worst of both worlds.

Yes, that was more or less (with perhaps a little more weight on the "less") what I was imagining that was being asked, but OP were also asking about point costs so... Im confused. Does OP wants to know how many ways are there to build a "FTL telescopic visions" that would ruin his light lag deal, but what does building such an ability with points have to do with removing that capacity from the setting? Just remove it - there's no FTL "sensors" in my universe.

Again, Im resorting to suppositions but I dont get what he wants. If other civilizations can stop this, well then, it's a moot questions