The morality of Orcs

[Dangerious P. Cats]

I've always liked the idea of giving characters in stories, including those told through roleplay, realistic characteristics and motives, though this becomes a rather interesting proportion when it comes to Orcs. Orcs are brutal and ruthless, they just wouldn't be Orcs if they weren't, but how do you explain their brutality in a realistic fantasy (I'm well aware of the paradox) setting? Also how do you give them redeeming features? Assuming you wants Orcs to be a playable race (and I am) they're going to need them. I guess the question is: what is the consistent feature in the party's interaction with Orc warriors, Orc merchants, Orc travellers, etc.

[rosignol]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

I guess the question is: what is the consistent feature in the party's interaction with Orc warriors, Orc merchants, Orc travellers, etc.

Killing them and taking their stuff.

[Michael Thayne]

Humans already can be pretty brutal, but (I'd like to think) have some redeeming features. The question is how much to shift orcs towards being more brutal.

One approach that leaps immediately to mind is to say that because orcs are a magically created race of warriors, their default psychological makeup is like that of a hardened human criminal (or soldier).

If you want orc merchants, you can say that many orcs try to go into other professions because there isn't enough money to be made in raiding, but have difficulty in them because of their psychological programming. You might, for example, have an uncomfortable scene with an orcish seller of woman's dresses with the mindset of a hardened drug dealer, ready to kill anyone who screws him.

If you want an entire orc nation, I'd look for an historical example of a rather nasty government (say, the Roman Empire), read up on all the nasty parts, and make sure every last one of those nasty parts is played up. By the end, it may not be necessary to make orcs any nastier than some historical human nations, though in that case you'll have to think about what makes orcs different than humans.

In many fantasy worlds, the average feudal ruler is much nicer than his historical counterpart. If you go that route, the difference between orcs and humans in your world might be less a matter of how nasty orcs are, and rather a matter of how exceptionally nice humans are.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by rosignol

Killing them and taking their stuff.

Lol. That reminds me of another approach: all orcs act like stereotypical PCs in a Dungeons and Dragons game.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Humans already can be pretty brutal, but (I'd like to think) have some redeeming features. The question is how much to shift orcs towards being more brutal.

One approach that leaps immediately to mind is to say that because orcs are a magically created race of warriors, their default psychological makeup is like that of a hardened human criminal (or soldier).

If you want orc merchants, you can say that many orcs try to go into other professions because there isn't enough money to be made in raiding, but have difficulty in them because of their psychological programming. You might, for example, have an uncomfortable scene with an orcish seller of woman's dresses with the mindset of a hardened drug dealer, ready to kill anyone who screws him.

If you want an entire orc nation, I'd look for an historical example of a rather nasty government (say, the Roman Empire), read up on all the nasty parts, and make sure every last one of those nasty parts is played up. By the end, it may not be necessary to make orcs any nastier than some historical human nations, though in that case you'll have to think about what makes orcs different than humans.

In many fantasy worlds, the average feudal ruler is much nicer than his historical counterpart. If you go that route, the difference between orcs and humans in your world might be less a matter of how nasty orcs are, and rather a matter of how exceptionally nice humans are.

I'm actually starting to like the idea of Orcs turning out to be no worse than humans, just with worse P.R. Orcs might only have a reputation for brutality because those that most humans encounter are really brutal, like judging all humans on the Mongols. That said I still prefer Orcs be phycologically different to humans in some small way.

[Michael Thayne]

>like judging all humans on the Mongols.

Or judging all Mongols based on Genghis Khan.

>That said I still prefer Orcs be phycologically different to humans in some small way.

Slight tendency towards a "warrior mindset"?

[Dinadon]

Well, in my DF setting (which, to be fair, has more than enough worked out that its more just a high-power fantasy setting than pure DF) a key cultural point for the orcs is that orcs are meant to kill orcs. This is shown by the way the orc war god interacts with other orc and human gods. When interacting with human gods it can almost be described as civil, with champions generally fighting to first blood as a show of dominance in the whatever proceedings are under way. With other orc gods this would instead be to the death.

So overall, most orcs in human lands will have the backing of their war god's cult, and they will have an attitude of 'you no orc, you not worthy of fight'. Of course necessity wins out when required. For people encountering orcs they will generally be aware that orcs will try to determine who's in charge of the interaction.

[SuedodeuS]

Orcs might originate from a particularly harsh land, where only the strong survive and resource wars are common. Being aggressive/brutish is seen as a good thing, as it shows you are capable and willing to be the first to attack (and thus the one more likely to survive) if necessary. It also shows you are not in any way afraid of conflict, so you can be relied upon if violence shows up.

As a result, most orcs characters encounter will be rather aggressive and intimidating. A warrior will make it clear he's perfectly willing to fight, possibly brandishing his weapons during any otherwise-civil (albeit likely full of threats and posturing on the orc's side - possibly extending into bullying if the characters don't respond in kind) conversation. A merchant will demand a given price, and proper haggling will likely involve a good deal of threats, posturing, and maybe even a few blows. A traveller will be boisterous and may belittle or threaten the characters - and he'll almost invariably be armed.

For redeeming features, a popular one is honor with an iron-clad word. If an orc tells you he will do something, he does it or dies trying. Additionally, they will be fiercely loyal to anyone who has proven themselves an ally, and they'll likely have great respect for those of other races who can behave in an orc-like manner (like the adventurer who is able to throw back all the threats and posturing, and add some more, when haggling with an orc merchant).

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

I'm actually starting to like the idea of Orcs turning out to be no worse than humans, just with worse P.R. Orcs might only have a reputation for brutality because those that most humans encounter are really brutal, like judging all humans on the Mongols. That said I still prefer Orcs be phycologically different to humans in some small way.

Actually Tolkien had a philosophical difficulty with the idea of an evil race and he could never quite make it work to his satisfaction.

Until quite recently most humans would have regarded soldiers as really no different from orcs. The customs of war were rather lenient until the ninteenth century and in many places they still are in the primeval form.

If orcs are a different species then at least one atrocity they might be less prone to is rape, having no biological attraction to humans.

One psychological difference you can give orcs is an extremely high aggression instinct. How a species would acquire this is up to you.

Of course you can take a leaf from Tolkien's book and make them slaves or former slaves of the Big Bad-perhaps controlled by a drug(like the Jem Haddar in DS9). One twist you can add there is an attempted revolt of the orcs.

Alternatively you can say they were once slaves but they broke free, but the mark is still on their psychology.

[rosignol]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Lol. That reminds me of another approach: all orcs act like stereotypical PCs in a Dungeons and Dragons game.

Simple, straightforward, and is actually a fairly subtle joke (until the PCs recognize things they've done back when they were playing D&D...).

I like it.