[Dungeon Fantasy] What 2 hybrid characters would you run?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Half Ogre Swashbuckler-Scout

I confess to an indifference to playing low-IQ all-fight, no-spell types in duos or trios. Perhaps it's because I've been in too many campaigns where some selfish caster self-buffed to my level of fighting ability and still had tons of spells for every other situation . . . and also had the IQ and social skills to get better combat gear than me . . . and in some cases could create it (though that's a nonissue in DF).

In big parties, with eight or more PCs, I'm fine with it. There's more pressure to stick to a niche.

But with two or three PCs, what seems to end up happening is that the caster becomes Selfy McBufferton, who's just as useful in combat as Thuggy Bowman, but who also serves as the face, the trap-disarmer, the survivalist, etc. by tossing a handful of points into each of a few domains on top of huge IQ and Magery or Power Investiture. Thuggy can protest by not playing bodyguard to Selfy, but that backfires when Selfy is the healer . . . and anyway, Selfy's player just comes back with Selfy II.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I confess to an indifference to playing low-IQ all-fight, no-spell types in duos or trios. Perhaps it's because I've been in too many campaigns where some selfish caster self-buffed to my level of fighting ability and still had tons of spells for every other situation . . . and also had the IQ and social skills to get better combat gear than me . . .

A problem not really solvable using GURPS Magic (any magic-as-powers system stops it cold), though IME it's more effective to buff a warrior through the roof than self-buff.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A problem not really solvable using GURPS Magic (any magic-as-powers system stops it cold), though IME it's more effective to buff a warrior through the roof than self-buff.

IME, you're right . . . but in many games, including 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and not just GURPS, reality is that you get non-team-player gamers who see everything on their character sheet as for them. The non-healing cleric who self-buffs and jumps into melee is endemic there, too.

[Imbicatus]

Originally Posted by Kromm

IME, you're right . . . but in many games, including 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and not just GURPS, reality is that you get non-team-player gamers who see everything on their character sheet as for them. The non-healing cleric who self-buffs and jumps into melee is endemic there, too.

Yeah, but in pathfinder healing isn’t a cleric niche. There are cure spells on about 15 class lists, and Anyone can use a wand of cure light wounds with UMD, so a cleric only needs to use spells on healing in dire emergencies. Clerics there are generally sub-optimal if they use heals combat. That said, they would also be better served buffing the combat specialist than themselves but a lot of my experience with pathfinder was at store/convention games where you aren’t sure who you’re going to be gaming with, so building for abilities you can use yourself is a sure bet, so I understand those situations. It’s also a big reason why I prefer gurps to pathfinder for rules.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd use a mix of the process of elimination and thinking about what absolutely has to be in the mix.

...

A devoted fighter is also essential . . . and I would go with the barbarian or the scout, because either would give you a warrior and an outdoorsman. You'll need at least one outdoorsman.

With those picked, I'd eliminate the holy warrior as bringing nothing to the table that the cleric and the barbarian or scout can't provide. I'd also cut the druid and shaman because we already have "holy caster" and "outdoorsman" covered. And I'd chop off the knight and swashbuckler because we already have "fighter" in the bag.

That gives us brains (cleric) and brawn (barbarian or scout).

...

Looking at barbarian or scout, cleric, thief, and wizard, I wouldn't put all my caster eggs in one basket, so cleric-wizard and wizard-cleric are out. That also sidelines the low-IQ barbarian, who just doesn't play well with casting spells.

As IQ and DX both seem rather significant for two Jacks of all trades, I think I'd try to maximize both. By the book, we get cleric-scout (DX 13, IQ 14), cleric-thief (DX 14, IQ 14), scout-cleric (DX 14, IQ 12), scout-wizard (DX 14, IQ 12), thief-cleric (DX 15, IQ 13), thief-wizard (DX 15, IQ 13), wizard-scout (DX 13, IQ 15), and wizard-thief (DX 14, IQ 15). The wizard-thief is the clear winner, so we're choosing either cleric-scout or scout-cleric, and cleric-scout does better.

So I'd have a cleric-scout with outdoorsy background skills like Climbing, Hiking, Observation, and Stealth; Healing spells but also outdoor-adventure-friendly magic like Breathe Water, Coolness, Create Food, Create Water, Purify Food, Purify Water, Umbrella, and Warmth; and of course the Spell-Archery spell. And I'd have a wizard-thief with urban background skills like Diplomacy and Savoir-Faire, quirk points in more social skills, and spells for mind control and thievery...

This is some really interesting stuff, thank you!

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sathyril Ofiril

300-Point Wood Elf Cleric-Scout

...

Ledira D'Win

300-Point High Elf Wizard-Thief

...

These are two really interesting characters, and I like the backstory that you wrote for them. My only question looking at them is that it looks to me like they are lacking in toughness and melee capability. I would think that at least one damage sponge and melee dominating character would be important in a two person party. I know Sathyril has staff skill at 17, Parry 14, but that doesn't defend against ranged attacks and the two characters between them only have 20 HP. I guess the need for healing, fighting, thieving, outdoors, and magic make it pretty hard to do with only two characters. Hmm, might be better to have a hireling/ally to cover one of those categories (probably the outdoor guide) rather than attempt to do all of them with two.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I tend to avoid gear when I post character sheets because I'm the sort of GM who makes gear disappear all too often. For the above characters, equip them as you see fit: light armor and quarterstaff for both; bow, arrows, and holy symbol for Sathyril; thieves' tools and something expensive to use as a power item for Ledira.

I'm also the sort of GM who believes that characters clearly above "starting level" should start with more stuff. My usual calculation for hack 'n' slash dungeon crawls goes like this:

• Each game session earns about 5 character points.
• Each game session could in theory be a quick delve.
• A delve should cover cost of living ($150) plus 100% profit on that (another $150, free and clear, in coin and useful gear), or who would do it?
• Thus, each character point earned in play corresponds to a bare minimum of $150/5 = $30 extra starting money.

By that logic, 300-point characters, who are 50 points above the standard 250 points, should get at least another $30 × 50 = $1,500, and begin with $2,500. Looking at actual equipment lists in my campaigns, I'd likely be more generous, perhaps giving out as much as an extra $10,000 in stuff (but not cash!).

This is a really interesting idea, I never really thought about it. It does go along with the D&D idea of wealth per level, which makes sense for a DF game.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by phayman53

My only question looking at them is that it looks to me like they are lacking in toughness and melee capability. I would think that at least one damage sponge and melee dominating character would be important in a two person party. I know Sathyril has staff skill at 17, Parry 14, but that doesn't defend against ranged attacks and the two characters between them only have 20 HP.

I'll state an unpopular opinion: Melee is not a thing you want to get into with just two people, even if they're both awesome at it. There's almost no way to avoid getting surrounded, and a single shot from behind or critical hit that takes someone out instantly doubles the enemy's odds at close quarters where there's probably no easy retreat. Characters like these will want to either sneak past combat encounters or turn them all into ranged battles . . . it's just smarter, and they have IQ 14 and 16, so they should play things smart, starting with abusing the heck out of Hide and Invisibility, and Walk on Air.

That said, don't discount the power of buffs. Might and Vigor really can do a lot of good, and then there's Blur and Shield. At ranges where Sathyril won't even find his archery abilities challenged, most enemies won't be hitting. Blur can really make things unfair, and Shield can enhance the power of Dodge.

But if melee happens, we are talking about a pair of characters with Staff 16 and 17, meaning Parry 13. Even a little Shield goes a long way there.

Originally Posted by phayman53

I guess the need for healing, fighting, thieving, outdoors, and magic make it pretty hard to do with only two characters. Hmm, might be better to have a hireling/ally to cover one of those categories (probably the outdoor guide) rather than attempt to do all of them with two.

Hired spear-carriers to act as melee meat shields are going to be the cheapest. Hirelings with magic and specialized technical skills are costly. But a few overconfident youths impressed by a couple of real elf heroes, or even some big dogs, are cheap and can buy the precious seconds needed for spellcasting.

Originally Posted by phayman53

This is a really interesting idea, I never really thought about it. It does go along with the D&D idea of wealth per level, which makes sense for a DF game.

You have to be a little careful . . .

I don't like giving out less than $1,000 in TL Olden Times fantasy, so it doesn't scale back. You have to carefully decide what "starting level" is for adventurers and set the minimum $1,000 there on down. Otherwise you end up with players arguing that if 50-point commoners get $1,000, their 250-point heroes should get $7,000.

Also, it helps a lot to specifically say "gear," so that PCs aren't walking around with tons of silver, looking for the perfect investment opportunity.

[Donny Brook]

A swamp elf knight-courtesan and a half-ogre clown-monk.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'll state an unpopular opinion: Melee is not a thing you want to get into with just two people, even if they're both awesome at it. There's almost no way to avoid getting surrounded, and a single shot from behind or critical hit that takes someone out instantly doubles the enemy's odds at close quarters where there's probably no easy retreat. Characters like these will want to either sneak past combat encounters or turn them all into ranged battles . . . it's just smarter, and they have IQ 14 and 16, so they should play things smart, starting with abusing the heck out of Hide and Invisibility, and Walk on Air.

That said, don't discount the power of buffs. Might and Vigor really can do a lot of good, and then there's Blur and Shield. At ranges where Sathyril won't even find his archery abilities challenged, most enemies won't be hitting. Blur can really make things unfair, and Shield can enhance the power of Dodge.

I wouldn't have thought of this, but that makes a lot of sense. Definitely a different style of play than I am used to. Unfortunately I have mostly been able to play CRPGs--I have trouble carving enough time and getting a group together for tabletop play. In CRPGs, you tend to need to be a meat shield in order to survive the hoards that run at you, but they also tend not to have any kind of flanking rules. And in most CRPGs, bows aren't nearly as effective as they are in GURPS. I can see that, in the more realistic combat rules of GURPS, one melee character supported by a range character (it would be REALLY hard to have two melee characters who also do the other things needed for this topic) is really susceptible to flanking.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Hired spear-carriers to act as melee meat shields are going to be the cheapest. Hirelings with magic and specialized technical skills are costly. But a few overconfident youths impressed by a couple of real elf heroes, or even some big dogs, are cheap and can buy the precious seconds needed for spellcasting.

This makes sense too. I guess I was thinking of someone who really was just there to act as guide, tracker, and wilderness survivalist and not really well rounded in any other kind of way.

[Celjabba]

While it is inferior to Kromm duo, I may suggest going with a duo of elementalist-cleric.

Between the allies and summoned/created elementals, the meat shields and damage dealing should be covered.
The basic of healing are there.
Social and thievery would be very basic, however. Thievery can be brute-forced with spells.

The primary problem would be that the best elemental allies are SM+2... so not good for dungeons.

[VariousRen]

Hey, a question I have a perfect answer for! Some context: I was part of a large DF group game with a mix-and-match, whoever is available philosophy. Some adventures would have 6 or even 8 adventurers from the 20-some players who were part of the game. On quiet nights there would sometimes only be a couple of people plus the DM.

Me and another player had schedules that meshed well with the DM's, but not well with much of the main group. We did a lot of duo adventures, and over time the characters started to adventure exclusively as a duo and advanced to make that possible. Both characters started as 125 points henchmen (like everyone in this game) and ended up at about 400 points.

My character, Gwendolyn, started as a half-elf Archer. She multi-classed into Druid (specializing in snakes), mostly for access to Hawk Vision (archery), Misty Mist (safe camping), Quick March (faster travels), and Windstorm (battlefield control). Over time she focused more heavily on druidic magic, but her archery skills were always useful. Here's the character sheet as she was last we played: https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1341150

The other character was the human Skirmisher Velouria. She never multiclassed, but specialized in being a skirmisher with skills in stealth, archery, and especially in duel wielding longswords. I don't have quick access to her character sheet unfortunately.

Over our adventures we learned a bunch of things about playing GURPS as a two person party. Kromm is exactly right that stealth and range are a massive benefit, and we used and abused it whenever we could. Meteoric arrows hurled from hundreds of yards from a pair hidden with Stealth-18 + camouflage paint and outfits can cause a lot of trouble from almost complete safety. When we were forced into closer fights the focus was to cover each others backs and limit how many attackers could reach us conveniently. Windstorm was a staple in our melee fights; a 2 yard center would leave space for the two of us while forcing enemies to stand in the penalized ring unless they had long reach weapons. It would also deny the enemy the use of ranged weapons against us. Sacrificial parry is another boon, as it both allows for double defenses against dangerous attacks as well as defending your partners back and sides. Special Rapport and Teamwork were useful for justifying highly co-ordinated responses, like moving a windstorm as we both moved or pre-planning defenses to avoid wasting sacrificial parries on easy attacks. Velouria took Double Jointed and Peripheral vision so even when surrounded she could defend both of us in all directions (defenses from the back were allowed as a house rule for those with double jointed).

Another thing we found to be massively important was Bless. Bless gives a much-needed buffer against a single critical hit or back shot. For a long time we never left town without at least a level 1 bless, and often a level 2. Recently I picked up a new realm for my druid just to give myself the ability to bless my partner after her Bless had been expended. Luck is another must-have for the same reason. With only 2 PC's turns tend to go faster as well, so you'll find you get a lot more use out of a higher level than you do in a large party. I had normal Luck, while Velouria (who took the brunt of attacks) had Extraordinary Luck.

As a druid I had access to animal allies, which can massively change the effect of numbers in a fight. Giant anaconda's have high ST, good DR, and are effective in almost every battlefield other than freezing cold ones. I bought a pack of 10, plus 2 more with a higher frequency of appearance and a single even-more-giant one. The snakes would move, slam, and grapple, and mainly prevented an enemy from being able to quickly encircle us. A necromancer would be able to pull something similar off with a horde of undead to tie enemies up. We had a side adventure catching sabertooth tigers and cross-breeding them with war horses (potions of Fertility) to produce fast and dangerous mounts, which also boosted our numbers in a fight.

Healing was probably our weakest point, but we made up for it with ample consumables and a talent for not being hurt in the first place. When I became a powerful druid we also discovered that Plant Form or Plant Form Other plus Heal Plant is a cheap-and-dirty Great Heal. Body of Wood would also let you Heal Plant a target, and gives some useful resistances if you're in a fight.

These two characters went on a ton of adventures together and managed to survive (there were plenty of close calls!), so I can say that a scout/druid and a swashbuckler would make a very competent duo.