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Old 06-18-2019, 08:56 PM   #91
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Given that these research installations are part of a massive offworld industrial network. I'm quite certain the stations will have bars and support personnel.
For some reason, I was thinking these were orbital facilities, but rereading OP I see we're dealing with colonies on Luna and Mars. While that does still create problems for Infinity, they are far less unsurmountable than I initially thought. Yeah, I'd say Infinity will be able to get their claws into this world's research to around the same extent as they can in other worldlines. If any of the important work is being done in small orbital facilities, however, those are going to be markedly more difficult to control.
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:31 PM   #92
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

The problem with Infinity (or Centrum) infiltrating extraterrestrial installations is the amount of paranoid security involved. Anyone going up is going to be double and triple checked and, since spacecraft are so easy to sabotage, the authorities will pull anyone suspicious rather than risk a disaster. When it comes to the Martian colonies, it is over an eight month trip (even further for the Main Belt), so there are lot of opportunities for an agent to slip up. Of course, this is why it would be good to play natives against invaders, with the natives erroneously thinks that the invaders are aliens, since the idea of paratronic travel would be more ludicrous than alien invaders to them.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:23 AM   #93
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

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No Great Society or No Vietnam war would be required.

Alternately a more tax tolerant and higher trust US could manage it.
Try this idea. Declassified documents show that Kennedy was totally against going into Vietnam. Both because he understood clearly what a mess it would be and he understood in broad outlines what it would do to American society. This is real history they've declassified the documents. Now suppose Kennedy in a fit of peak or desperation had called in both Bobby and LBJ to talk to them about it. Especially what he thought the war would do to American society. Now in our history Bobby and LBJ couldn't stand each other. In this world let's have them bond over joining JFK in making sure there would be no Vietnam war.

After the assassination, both Bobby and LBJ notice that all the same people who pushed for American intervention in Vietnam are doing so louder. Trying to stampede LBJ into intervention( historically this is what happened, Tokin was just the final incedent). However, the two foes realise the threat and ally.

Meanwhile, Wolf Ladejinski was pushing land reform in Vietnam. Now, in our history, when they finally tried Ladejenski's ideas, in a test batch in the Makong delta, the local farmers who were sold the land drove out the Viet Cong in mere weeks. But they waited far to long and the whole thing came to nothing. However, in this world, have LBJ and Bobby tell the Vietnamese that "No land-reform, no American aid or troops."

Now Bobby and LBJ expected to be kicked out of Vietnam. Instead the Vietnamese tried a pilot project ( in 1964) in the Makong delta. The resaults were the same. LBJ, with Bobby's approval, said troops would be sent, but they would stay only if there was a nation wide land reform. As the Vietnamese saw a chance to both secure American aid and be rid of the Viet Cong in one move, they agreed.

The Vietnam War was less than a blip on either America's or Europe's radar. And the switch back to pushing land reform over aiding strongmen made for a less brutal world.

Does this meet needs for being rid of the Vietnam war?
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:05 AM   #94
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

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Try this idea. Declassified documents show that Kennedy was totally against going into Vietnam. Both because he understood clearly what a mess it would be and he understood in broad outlines what it would do to American society. This is real history they've declassified the documents.
Sources? The history I've read was that the Kennedys were big proponents of supporting the South Vietnamese regime because of its Catholicism, and accepted its repressive policies toward Vietnamese Buddhists on that basis. Has this been updated?
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:06 AM   #95
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

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Sources? The history I've read was that the Kennedys were big proponents of supporting the South Vietnamese regime because of its Catholicism, and accepted its repressive policies toward Vietnamese Buddhists on that basis. Has this been updated?
The Best and the Brightest by David Halberstam kind of supports what Astromancer is saying. But Astromancer is talking about documents, primary sources, so I'll let him answer which documents.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:15 AM   #96
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Sources? The history I've read was that the Kennedys were big proponents of supporting the South Vietnamese regime because of its Catholicism, and accepted its repressive policies toward Vietnamese Buddhists on that basis. Has this been updated?
There's a big difference between "supporting" and going in. There are a lot of ways to support a local regime that fall short of outright fighting their war for them. Also I doubt his Catholicism played a significant role in accepting repressive polices toward Buddhists. All through the Cold War the United States was quite cordial to oppressive dictatorships just as long as they were anti-communist oppressive dictatorships on the rationale that communism would be worse.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:23 AM   #97
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The Best and the Brightest by David Halberstam kind of supports what Astromancer is saying. But Astromancer is talking about documents, primary sources, so I'll let him answer which documents.
The books, academic histories, are in storage until Dec 2020 (I hate bedbugs). So I'd need to spend a week or two gathering the data. But, as the documents caused a sensation in the academic history community when they were declassified, there should be papers online discussing the documents. I'm grateful to Žorkell (I wish English would bring back the letter Thorn) for pointing out a book that references the documents. Thank-you Žorkell.

Meanwhile, the Vietnam War is off the table. Space Solar gets a big boost.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:57 PM   #98
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

Just a weird thing to toss in, but what if the Mirsaid Sultan Galiev had found more success with his "Islamic Socialism", rather than being Gulagged and executed as he was in history. There's quite a bit of finagaling to keep him from being executed and the Islamic Socialist movement crushed, but the results could work out well for this timeline's goals of promoting space travel, and especially, solar energy.

During WW2, the propaganda depicting the Nazis as Crusaders is used to mobilize vast numbers of Islamic conscripts. In turn, after the war, these MusSocs spread the influence of the USSR in the middle east, ousting the Anglo-American interests there, and leading towards a Pan Arab Socialist state. Iran can still be a Liberal Democracy, an "alien" in the midst of the Socialist Muslim countries.

With the middle-east and the USSR in close co-operation, the oil crisis of the 1970s may be much more terrifying, a potentially existential threat, leading to the western powers heading towards space and solar power for their energy independence.

The soviet Invasion of Afghanistan never happens, or if it does, it's radically different than the OL, as the USSR is joined by numerous Islamic Socialist states in their war. The MusSoc idealogy spreads amongst the Uigheyrs in China, widening the Sino-soviet split, perhaps irreparably.

The USSR doesn't "collapse", and the John McCain is elected amidst a "red crescent scare". Iran is an essential staging point for the unsuccessful war in Arabia. The USSR and MusSoc states never really recover from this. Perhaps Nuclear War is adverted by superior ABM platforms in space?
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:25 PM   #99
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Discussion has been about solar panels for power in space. If you look at the classic von Braun space station as depicted by Bonestell it has a parabolic trough on the wheel that used solar heat to generate power. So you could have early experiments using solar boiler power generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotati...9_original.jpg

If instead of the direct to the Moon Apollo style mission they went with the slower but leaves infrastructure in place original proposal with a Earth to orbit craft, a space station, and a orbit to Moon craft you have a place to build a prototype orbit to ground power system.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:58 AM   #100
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Default Re: Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

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Discussion has been about solar panels for power in space. If you look at the classic von Braun space station as depicted by Bonestell it has a parabolic trough on the wheel that used solar heat to generate power. So you could have early experiments using solar boiler power generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotati...9_original.jpg

If instead of the direct to the Moon Apollo style mission they went with the slower but leaves infrastructure in place original proposal with a Earth to orbit craft, a space station, and a orbit to Moon craft you have a place to build a prototype orbit to ground power system.
The leaves useful infrastructure behind model appeals to me. Infrastructure makes future missions cheaper if they make the starting missions more expensive.
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