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Old 03-14-2018, 10:53 AM   #1
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default No TFT Bloat Please

Moved from another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifex View Post
On their FaceBook page tonight, SJ Games announced the pricing for TFT.
$14.95 is the price for "a printed product and Melee and Wizard will be separate products."

If that is the price for ITL, AW and AM combined into one book, it's a good deal.

A random comparison with GURPS Fantasy shows a $30 price point for a 240 page softcover book. ITL, AW and AM total 128 pages, so the proposed price is roughly comparable on a per page basis.

And, it's actually $1 less than these books cost in 1981. AM and AW were $5 each and ITL was $6. But in 2018 dollars, that's $45 total (!).

For comparison, the 240 page AD&D DM's guide was $15 ($43 today) and the 128 page Player's Handbook and Monster Manual were $12 ($34 today) each. $111 in today's dollars total for AD&D.

In 1981, the Runequest softcover rules cost $12 ($34 today) and the boxed set with rules, adventure and dice cost $20 ($57 today).

The current 3 D&D books cost $30 each ($34 for the MM) on Amazon. The two core GURPS hardbacks cost $62 on Amazon. The hardback GURPS Fantasy was $37 when available.

This illustrates that the cost of RPGs has decreased in real dollars since the late 70s/early 80s. For less that the cost of the original 3 AD&D books, you can get RPG books with twice as many pages - in full color.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-14-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:26 PM   #2
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: No TFT Bloat Please

In the previous post, I noted that modern RPG books are much cheaper (per page) than their 1981 counterparts. I wonder though...does the additional content actually make the games more enjoyable?

Here are the page counts for base rules for various 1980s era RPGs:

TFT, Runequest and Call of Cthulhu - 128 pp.
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes - 112 pp.
3rd edition Champions - 96 pp.
AD&D core 3 hardbacks - the most detailed mainstream RPG at that time - 512 pp.
Traveller - 72 pp equivalent (144 pp if you added Books 4,5 and Supplement 4, which expanded the game tremendously).

In 2018, here are some page counts:

D&D core 3 books - 990pp.
GURPS, with a decent genre book - 800 pp.
Call of Cthulhu Core Rulebook - 448 pp, with a 288 pp "Investigator Book".
Basic Roleplaying - 400 pp
Traveller 5 - 500+ pp
Hero System Vols 1 & 2 - 784pp (There is a 160 page "lite" version, but I dunno if its as comprehensive as 3rd edition Champions)
GURPS Traveller - 176 pp for genre book + 576 pages of RPG rules
SJG's Dungeon Fantasy - presumably a "lite" RPG - 430 pp.

Comparing 2018 with 1981, time seems to be my most precious commodity. I suspect that's true of many (most?) of us. However, the amount of material necessary to play a typical RPG has at least doubled. And while the games have generally gotten more complex, have they gotten more FUN?

No, in my opinion. Worse, the tedium of hacking through 800+ pages of RPG rules has made them LESS fun to me.

All of which leads me back to TFT. I hope that Steve will ruthlessly eschew complexity. Let TFT - at least in its base form - be a near-perfect example of a streamlined, efficient RPG. 128 pages is more than adequate to describe a roleplaying system in my opinion. That was sufficient for Traveller, Runequest, and Call of Cthulhu - 3 of the best RPGs ever.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-14-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:39 PM   #3
Dave Crowell
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Default Re: No TFT Bloat Please

I would expect a full TFT in one volume to cost more than $14.95. I would be glad to pay the current industry standard rate for such a book. Personally I would love to see Melee, Wizard, AM, AW, and ITL edited together into one comprehensive volume and issued in hard cover. That and basic Melee and Wizard as small boxed games, similar to the recent reissue of classic Car Wars.

I am not at all sure that TFT needs much if any expansion in the core rules. An additional bestiary, because who doesn't love more monsters, and a grimoire with additional spells would be nice expansions.

Beyond that take a page from Goodman Games' DCC line and put additional content into adventure modules making them also serve as themed sourcebooks.This would also add reusability.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:03 PM   #4
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: No TFT Bloat Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
In the previous post, I noted that modern RPG books are much cheaper (per page) than their 1981 counterparts. I wonder though...does the additional content actually make the games more enjoyable?

- snip -

Comparing 2018 with 1981, time seems to be my most precious commodity. I suspect that's true of many (most?) of us. However, the amount of material necessary to play a typical RPG has at least doubled. And while the games have generally gotten more complex, have they gotten more FUN?

No, in my opinion. Worse, the tedium of hacking through 800+ pages of RPG rules has made them LESS fun to me.

All of which leads me back to TFT. I hope that Steve will ruthlessly eschew complexity. Let TFT - at least in its base form - be a near-perfect example of a streamlined, efficient RPG. 128 pages is more than adequate to describe a roleplaying system in my opinion. That was sufficient for Traveller, Runequest, and Call of Cthulhu - 3 of the best RPGs ever.
THIS. I suspect that one of the reasons that TFT remains my favorite RPG is because I can actually read through it and play it quickly. While I know there are some things he will adjust, I sincerely hope he keeps it as elegant and easy as it was in 1981.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Crowell View Post
I would expect a full TFT in one volume to cost more than $14.95. I would be glad to pay the current industry standard rate for such a book. Personally I would love to see Melee, Wizard, AM, AW, and ITL edited together into one comprehensive volume and issued in hard cover. That and basic Melee and Wizard as small boxed games, similar to the recent reissue of classic Car Wars.

I am not at all sure that TFT needs much if any expansion in the core rules. An additional bestiary, because who doesn't love more monsters, and a grimoire with additional spells would be nice expansions.

Beyond that take a page from Goodman Games' DCC line and put additional content into adventure modules making them also serve as themed sourcebooks.This would also add reusability.
AND THIS. This pretty much sums up what I think the vast majority of us are actually hoping for (all the debates about how many attributes can dance on the head of a pin not withstanding...).
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:47 AM   #5
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: No TFT Bloat Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I suspect that one of the reasons that TFT remains my favorite RPG is because I can actually read through it and play it quickly. While I know there are some things he will adjust, I sincerely hope he keeps it as elegant and easy as it was in 1981.
So maybe it's worth suggesting things that could be deleted from TFT to make it even simpler and cleaner.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:05 AM   #6
Jim Kane
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: No TFT Bloat Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
All of which leads me back to TFT. I hope that Steve will ruthlessly eschew complexity. Let TFT - at least in its base form - be a near-perfect example of a streamlined, efficient RPG.
100% AGREED AGAIN. Let ITL, AM, and AW stay as they are in form and scope.

If this thing "goes" in the market place as I am suspecting it might - as the "new" antidote system in demand - there will be plenty of time for "Expert Rules" and "Master Rules" to present added detail and such for those who demand that in the their games.

My vote is with you Ty, keep the core TFT:ITL, AM, AW game scope "AS WAS".

At this stage I am feeling so strongly TFT is going to "catch fire" again, I am envisioning an email subscription which allows you to print-out an updated index for the TFT system, as it grows and Grows, and GROWS with Supplements, "Expert Melee". "Expert Wizard", "Master Melee", "Master Wizard", MicroQuests, Adventure Modules, Source Books, etc.

Ah,... Heaven, I can see it now!!

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-19-2018 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Correction of a misnomer
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