Low Velocity Slams, a Murphy?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Ts_

Well, you still end up with weirdness at slow speeds. It's less likely, that is true, but a human would have some chance to auto-KD an elephant at slow speeds when rolling 1d-2 vs 1d-1, but would have almost no chance at high speeds when it's more like 5d vs 2d.


Regards
Ts

No, this was pointed out up thread by Douglas Cole
See B353 Lifting and Moving things during combat.

So the Tick could knock down an elephant but well, he is the Tick<g>.

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by Refplace

No, this was pointed out up thread by Douglas Cole
See B353 Lifting and Moving things during combat.

Yep, I read that. It's a weird hard limit though. It doesn't work for a speeding super as it completely disregards Move. It also implies that a ST 50 elephant (BL 500) with a full move running start can only shove a 24x500 = 12,000 pound object. Which is to say, it might just be enough to shove a normal adult male elephant.
(Why? Basic Lift is the square of ST, weight the cube. At some point, weight surpasses BL by a lot. Which happens around ST 50 here, but no matter the precise threshold, that's certainly within a realistic range.)

Also, the same paragraph giving this limit says "These rules are for inanimate objects; see Slam for rules governing attempts to knock over someone who can actively resists." You might read that as "see Slam for additional rules", but either would make sense.

In any case, take "elephant" to mean "largest opponent under whatever rules". It still stands that low velocities are greatly beneficial to the attacker due to the bonuses, which is what the thread is about.

Regards
Ts

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Ts_

Also, the same paragraph giving this limit says "These rules are for inanimate objects; see Slam for rules governing attempts to knock over someone who can actively resists." You might read that as "see Slam for additional rules", but either would make sense.

Regards
Ts

Yeah saw that but took it to refer to the active defenses part, though the wording could have been more clear.
I am going to assume the major end of this argument to be countered by the ST cap but the rest of your point stands.

[Kraydak]

This is one of the issues with GURPS ST=HP=Mass^(1/3). Slams to a large extent, and resisting knockdown to a far greater extent should be based on mass. If you don't want to change slam damage, multiply it by BL (proportional to ST^2) for knockdown purposes. I might change slam damage to:

HP*V*(smaller BL of the pair)/2000 dice inflicted (normalizing around BL=20)

and the larger BL guy gets to multiple the results by (larger BL)/(smaller BL) for knockdown purposes. After that, knocking down elephants will be a truly heroic feat for a human.

[doulos05]

I liked the suggestion I saw about capping bonuses at Velocity (or double velocity with WM or some other good reason to be better). Does that fix the weirdness?

Because my current understanding of the weirdness is that dice scale but bonuses don't. By capping bonuses based on your velocity, bonuses no longer scale.

[seasong]

Just thought I would push the ridiculousness:

Lleweyllelewellen Buttercup, a pixie known for her ferocious drop-kicks.
Size Modifier -4 (1'6" tall; 2.5 lbs.)
HP 2
Weapon Master
Sumo Wrestling at DX+2
Drop-Kick at Sumo Wrestling+0
Wearing heavy boots

Move 1 yard + All-Out Attack (Strong) + Drop-Kick

Slam damage is 1d+6 (0.02 translates to 1d-3 from HP; +2 AOA(S); +2 WM; +2/die Sumo Wrestling; +3 Drop-Kick with heavy boots)

Note that the slam damage is sufficient to do a yard of knockback to the average human, as well!

As a side note, here's what centi-scale does to that (assuming that you don't multiply damage bonuses by x100 as well):

Slam damage is 2d+11 (0.02 translates to 2d from HP; +1/die AOA(S); +1/die WM; +2/die Sumo Wrestling; +3 Drop-Kick with heavy boots).

A HP 10 opponent would deal 10d+0 (0.1 translates to 10d from HP) in return.

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by seasong

As a side note, here's what centi-scale does to that (assuming that you don't multiply damage bonuses by x100 as well):

But that's the thing: The damage bonuses override almost everything at low dice (which means low move*HP). Not adjusting the bonus as well is like giving only 1/10 or a 1/100 of the bonus (depending on scale).

But hey, more weirdness:
A player (HP 10) has the choice of slamming into a 123 HP steel monster or a steel wall. When the player slams into the monster, the player takes collision damage relatiev to the HP of the monster. When he slams into the wall, the player takes damage relative to his own HP according to the collision rules. Running into the wall is much healthier for the player!

From a physics point of view, I guess a slam works somewhat like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision ... But that isn't really playable. It would be nice to have at least consistent rules, though. Something that works similarly for a low velocity Shove, roughly same-size slammers and running into a wall.

Regards
Ts

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Ts_

From a physics point of view, I guess a slam works somewhat like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision ... But that isn't really playable. It would be nice to have at least consistent rules, though. Something that works similarly for a low velocity Shove, roughly same-size slammers and running into a wall.

GURPS Physics and GURPS Advanced Biomechanics would both sell well, I'm sure ;)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ts_

But that's the thing: The damage bonuses override almost everything at low dice (which means low move*HP). Not adjusting the bonus as well is like giving only 1/10 or a 1/100 of the bonus (depending on scale).

But hey, more weirdness:
A player (HP 10) has the choice of slamming into a 123 HP steel monster or a steel wall. When the player slams into the monster, the player takes collision damage relatiev to the HP of the monster. When he slams into the wall, the player takes damage relative to his own HP according to the collision rules. Running into the wall is much healthier for the player!

From a physics point of view, I guess a slam works somewhat like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision ... But that isn't really playable. It would be nice to have at least consistent rules, though. Something that works similarly for a low velocity Shove, roughly same-size slammers and running into a wall.

Regards
Ts

IIRC Spaceships corrected it that you can't receive more than twice the damage you do.

[seasong]

Originally Posted by Ts_

But that's the thing: The damage bonuses override almost everything at low dice (which means low move*HP). Not adjusting the bonus as well is like giving only 1/10 or a 1/100 of the bonus (depending on scale).

Er, yes, exactly? That is why I presented it as a side note and noted the special assumption.