[MH] Gun Wielding Foes

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

re and predict that you'll agree with me every point of the way, and the only real difference between us is when we give that first point, and how quickly we hand out the rest, ie "What does 1 point mean," and "how much dedication really goes into 4, 8 and 12 points," and "how unusual is DX 12."

Where I tend to veer off a bit is actually not in the timing, but rather "what actually counts as COMBAT Guns skill?"

If you gave all of those levels exactly the same and said "This is Guns Sport; subtract 3 if you actually get in a firefight" I'd nod my head and say "yep."

But most range practice does nothing, in fact, if you listen to combat instructors rather than target instructors, it may be a real negative, for combat training.

THAT'S where I get all "default!11!" about this stuff. Most people can't hit CRAP in combat with guns. Even people with lots of hours on the range, who do "practical" shooting, or even hunting, don't necessarily do that well. I think that most of the numbers you probably get with lower raw combat skill but task difficulty mods that stack up to 3-4 points fairly quickly.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Where I tend to veer off a bit is actually not in the timing, but rather "what actually counts as COMBAT Guns skill?"

If you gave all of those levels exactly the same and said "This is Guns Sport; subtract 3 if you actually get in a firefight" I'd nod my head and say "yep."

But most range practice does nothing, in fact, if you listen to combat instructors rather than target instructors, it may be a real negative, for combat training.

THAT'S where I get all "default!11!" about this stuff. Most people can't hit CRAP in combat with guns. Even people with lots of hours on the range, who do "practical" shooting, or even hunting, don't necessarily do that well. I think that most of the numbers you probably get with lower raw combat skill but task difficulty mods that stack up to 3-4 points fairly quickly.

Yeah, that's generally my problem as well. If you look at actual hit rates in combat the lower skill levels mesh better.

As Kalzazz notes, this does mean people tend to whiff a lot in round to round combat, but Tactical Shooting has some good notes on making misses meaningful. Of course, if you don't care about realism and just want scenarios where your players don't feel like they can stroll unconcerned about a battlefield full of lead, sure, jack up skill levels. But I think the slightly lower levels do better model reality, myself.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I wouldn't put too much stock in the 200 hours thing. GURPS is far more granular than most RPGs out there, but even it has to abstract stuff out. A default mostly covers something someone has no experience with, so a default is what happens when you toss a gun to someone and say "Go, shoot."

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Familiarizing someone with a gun, showing them some pointers, and giving them a chance to mess around with it is certainly going to considerably improve their skill, which can be represented by a single point in a skill. Arguably, there should probably be a shadow-zone between "Default" and "one point of skill" but GURPS doesn't have that.

I was pretty happy with how this was all written up in TS IDHMBWM, but IIRC you can have familiarity with a gun before a skill point. So this can represent some experience, but not yet a skill point. In fact I believe that TS suggests security guards often only have this after their training.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

That's for the successful gangbangers. The vast majority of them are actually more likely to have below average attributes due to childhood malnourishment, drug abuse, etc. Well, in addition to not actually having reached their full growth yet, being often underage.

Absolutely, a successful gangbanger has higher then average physical stats, there own weapon and skill 12-14. An unsuccessful or fledgling gangbanger does not.

But unless the PCs are social workers, police, or specifically dealing with gangs they will never encounter fledgling or unsuccessful gangbangers because those ones will have been saved by social workers, arrested by police, killed by other more sucessful gangbangers, or wisely poop themselves when a PC comes into there general vacinity and hide the cracks until they leave.

If the PCs are encountering gangbangers, thugs, or other armed goons they are likely the hired muscle for someone else with more money and power, they got hired because they have above average physical stats and skill with weapons. They also got hired because outside of wanting to be paid they won't care much the payer is an evil spider-goddess intent on laying eggs inside a bunch of captured victims or a mad scientists who needs some coverage while he builds he next robot of doom.

[copeab]

Another thing to consider is that a gang might have some 'ringers'. A trend over the last decade or so is for gangs to send members who are able to qualify into military service. The gangbanger does their term and comes back and imparts their training to the rest of the gang. Not common, by any means, but it means many gangs with have a member or with with above average skill in weapons and demolition (among other things).

[copeab]

Originally Posted by starslayer

If the PCs are encountering gangbangers, thugs, or other armed goons they are likely the hired muscle for someone else with more money and power, they got hired because they have above average physical stats and skill with weapons. They also got hired because outside of wanting to be paid they won't care much the payer is an evil spider-goddess intent on laying eggs inside a bunch of captured victims or a mad scientists who needs some coverage while he builds he next robot of doom.

Yeah, but if they get paid in drugs or snort some brown-brown before combat, they ain't gonna have very high effective skills.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I'd use defaults for someone who's never used a gun before, like a completely green gangster, a college kid who's just been tossed a gun for the first time in his life, or what have you.

A gang banger who's plinked some beer cans with his buddies, knows what a safety is, but still insists on turning the gun "gangsta style" probably has no more than 1 point. A skilled and experienced gangster who's done a few drive-bys might go all the way up to 12. I think you could apply the same to survivalists and cultists. These are people with no formal training, but that doesn't necessarily translate to a complete lack of skill. I'm presuming that they have SOME experience.

The next set are people with formal training. That formal training might be minimal (skill 12), or it might be substantial and backed up with plenty of experience (skill 13-15).

Skill 16 is really about as high as you're going to get before you're really going to get into a "heroic" zone that suggests that the characters have names, personality, individuality, and should be treated as such, rather than as goons. And some heroes will have less than 16 gun skill, naturally.

And, of course, just because you're a gang-banger, police or soldier doesn't mean you actually do have skill with a gun. Everyone's green at some point, and cops and soldiers can be desk jockeys too.

You think they spend 800 hours on the range? One point is a lot of practice if you lack a teacher.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

You think they spend 800 hours on the range? One point is a lot of practice if you lack a teacher.

You really shouldn't put too much stock in the "200 hours per skill point," or you have to contend with how many skill points people should have because of public education, and you get almost nobody with any reasonable combat skills, since nobody spends those kinds of hours actually practicing combat skills.

Those 200 hours reflect one way to get free points for players who want them. There are other ways to get points, and the game expects you will receive those points and spend them. Do you demand 200 hours before you allow a player to spend a character point too? Sometimes, people pick up skills more quickly than that, and sometimes they don't pick up skills at all.

If you gave all of those levels exactly the same and said "This is Guns Sport; subtract 3 if you actually get in a firefight" I'd nod my head and say "yep."

I simply do not agree. First of all, Guns Sport is a genuine skill that, itself, takes practice and provides benefits. It's not a way to slap people with a penalty because they didn't learn REAL™ Guns skill. Gang-bangers are not learning to score the most points possible during marksmanship contests, they're studying and practicing how to kill people. I would not expect a gang banger to be competitive with a professional sports marksman. Secondly, the rules for plinking already cover the fact that people tend to perform better when firing at bottles or on the range than they do in battle, and there exist more than enough penalties to cover what actually happens in a firefight. Finally, my skill ranks track with page B172, and yours do not.

[Luke Bunyip]

Just stumbled across this thread. Am very amused.

Am starting my mini campaign with my PCs waiting in an office to met their NPC client. And then two demons carrying shorn off double shotguns burst in through the door....

The demons will be about Guns(Shotgun)-8, but that should be enough to get the players attention.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Finally, my skill ranks track with page B172, and yours do not.

Mine track with the skill required to generate real-world hit rates in real-world combat (actual published stats). They also are basically verbatim from Tactical Shooting, p. 42.