[MH] Gun Wielding Foes

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by copeab

That's ... rather high for a 'goon'. I'd expect something more in the 10-12 range.

Well, it depends: Gang-bangers or cultists or untrained kooky survivalist militia will likely have a gun skill of 10-12, but basically amount to "ordinary people who have fired a gun once or twice, possibly never in anger." Soldiers, paramilitary groups and police (especially swat) would have 12-15, depending on how elite they are. 16+ should really be reserved for hero-level characters. You might see a "goon-squad" of special ops with guns-16 and some elite tactics, but those are pretty lethal and practically the sort of thing that could take on monsters themselves, with a few pointers. That's the sort of unit a Commando MH might originally hail from.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

So agree with you for the most part, but I do think there's a smidge of truth to the fact that pistols may be more common here in the US than in other places.

Oh, 100%, but that's like saying China has more Platinum than anywhere else on Earth, but it's not the most common metal by far!

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Agreed on the Pistol. However, Guns (Rifle)-14 still might be a bit high, even for a lifetime hunter.

Let's see what skill you need to bag an animal that's SM+0 at 300 yards (-13)

You're going for the vitals (-3).

You want to hit almost every time (14 or less final roll).

You fire once, after Aim, Brace, and extra aim.

let's assume a .308 or .30-06 rifle, Acc 5, with a x10 scope (+3).

Aim (+5), Scope (+3), Extra Time to Aim (+3), AoA (Determined) (+1), Braced (+1). Total of +13, which cancels out the range.

Situational Modifiers:
Speed/range precisely known: nope/not necessarily
No risk to self: yep, +1
No risk to others: yep, +1
No political/military stake in the outcome: Let's say you have a survival stake in the outcome, perhaps, and not give credit here.
Environment: not a range situation, no modifier.
Net: +2

Unless I miss something, to take a deer in the Vitals at 300yds reliably (which is a long shot for most hunting situations) you need about Guns (Rifle)-15.

That's higher than I'd have thought one needed . . . any modifiers I'm missing?

Doug

Nope. Hence my point. Deer hunters need pretty good skills to reliably hit vitals at longer range.

Note that 300 yards is a bit far for some hunters. And some people hand-load rounds, or have a rifle that they may have accurized or a weapon bond. But I DO know guys who can pick up a rifle, any functioning reasonably accurate rifle, and make that shot without trying. It's not universal, but it's not that rare either.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Well, it depends: Gang-bangers or cultists or untrained kooky survivalist militia will likely have a gun skill of 10-12, but basically amount to "ordinary people who have fired a gun once or twice, possibly never in anger."

Why would you not just use defaults for that? Not trying to be persnickety . . . asking a serious question. I'd have the description you used be default, which will be Guns-6 to Guns-8 in most cases. For Guns-10 through Guns-12, these are DX to DX+2, that is, people who put a lot of time into a combat skill (the DX+2 level being somewhat meaning in GURPS "serious at it," since it's the breakpoint for most meaningful bonuses for things like Karate, Wrestling, etc).

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Why would you not just use defaults for that? Not trying to be persnickety . . . asking a serious question. I'd have the description you used be default, which will be Guns-6 to Guns-8 in most cases. For Guns-10 through Guns-12, these are DX to DX+2, that is, people who put a lot of time into a combat skill (the DX+2 level being somewhat meaning in GURPS "serious at it," since it's the breakpoint for most meaningful bonuses for things like Karate, Wrestling, etc).

Yeah, most gangbangers I peg at default as well.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Nope. Hence my point. Deer hunters need pretty good skills to reliably hit vitals at longer range.

Note that 300 yards is a bit far for some hunters. And some people hand-load rounds, or have a rifle that they may have accurized or a weapon bond. But I DO know guys who can pick up a rifle, any functioning reasonably accurate rifle, and make that shot without trying. It's not universal, but it's not that rare either.

I just found an interesting survey poll that suggests ranges are more 50 - 250 yards . . . and it seems taking 100yds as the most common shot is closer to 300yds. that's Rifle-13, and the items you mention (Fine Rifle, Handloads, Weapon Bond) might mean that you can do that with as little as Rifle-10, though at some point you start capping bonuses, I think.

My "Hmmm . . . " moment was more on the lines of what would it really take to bag a deer 9 times in 10? Depending on your local environment, looks like Guns (Rifle)-10 to 15 would do just fine, especially with nice stuff and a rifle that works for you.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I just found an interesting survey poll that suggests ranges are more 50 - 250 yards . . . and it seems taking 100yds as the most common shot is closer to 300yds.

Sounds about right. I'd ballpark the most common shot at between 100-200 yards for actual hunting deer with rifles, as opposed to cammoed to the gills hunting turkeys with shotguns or something. I've known a couple hunters who won't take a shot at over 150 yards because they can't guarantee that they'll drop a deer past that range. But the older crustier types tend to be truly impressive shots.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Depending on your local environment, looks like Guns (Rifle)-10 to 15 would do just fine, especially with nice stuff and a rifle that works for you.

Yup. Possibly even higher, in rare cases.

Also keep in mind that a lot of shots while hunting are taken around dawn or dusk, so there's probably some negative vision mods as well. And I'd bet a lot of experienced hunters have some level of Precision Aiming technique bought up.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Why would you not just use defaults for that? Not trying to be persnickety . . . asking a serious question. I'd have the description you used be default, which will be Guns-6 to Guns-8 in most cases. For Guns-10 through Guns-12, these are DX to DX+2, that is, people who put a lot of time into a combat skill (the DX+2 level being somewhat meaning in GURPS "serious at it," since it's the breakpoint for most meaningful bonuses for things like Karate, Wrestling, etc).

I'd use defaults for someone who's never used a gun before, like a completely green gangster, a college kid who's just been tossed a gun for the first time in his life, or what have you.

A gang banger who's plinked some beer cans with his buddies, knows what a safety is, but still insists on turning the gun "gangsta style" probably has no more than 1 point. A skilled and experienced gangster who's done a few drive-bys might go all the way up to 12. I think you could apply the same to survivalists and cultists. These are people with no formal training, but that doesn't necessarily translate to a complete lack of skill. I'm presuming that they have SOME experience.

The next set are people with formal training. That formal training might be minimal (skill 12), or it might be substantial and backed up with plenty of experience (skill 13-15).

Skill 16 is really about as high as you're going to get before you're really going to get into a "heroic" zone that suggests that the characters have names, personality, individuality, and should be treated as such, rather than as goons. And some heroes will have less than 16 gun skill, naturally.

And, of course, just because you're a gang-banger, police or soldier doesn't mean you actually do have skill with a gun. Everyone's green at some point, and cops and soldiers can be desk jockeys too.

[Kalzazz]

I think GURPS absolutely does not give enough credit to the awesomeness of braced scoped rifles in the hands of people who have not a clue what they are doing at least as far as hunting goes . . . . 200 yds to the vitals of a deer with a scoped braced rifle and time to aim is very easy and definitely not skill 13, it should be something people can do from default as long as they don't have non familiarity and all . . . . . definitely not a '200 hours of training' thing, more like 'a box of bullets and an afternoon, with bullets left over for the actual hunting'

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

it should be something people can do from default as long as they don't have non familiarity and all . . . . . definitely not a '200 hours of training' thing, more like 'a box of bullets and an afternoon, with bullets left over for the actual hunting'

Definitely not. I've trained shooters up to the point where they could make that shot, and it's not that easy. Most people I've met can achieve what you mention at about 50 yards with an afternoon of training. 200 yards not likely unless they're just naturally gifted. Going from 50 yards to 200 yards on a human-sized vitals hit requires enough training that I'd happily call it a point of training.