Telekinesis with no fine manipulators?

[Maz]

If I wanted telekinesis, but I don't want to be able to do all the fine and precise stuff.

I just want to be able to lift, throw and grab stuff. (as depicted in so many movies).

What sort of limitation would that be?



That is, I would basically only be able to lift and throw things.
No TK punch.
No fine manipulation.

[whswhs]

That's tricky, because "no fine manipulators" doesn't give you exactly what you want. It prevents you from picking locks, tying knots, or wielding weapons, but it also prevents you from grasping firmly, which is a core feature of TK as you envision it. And "no manipulators" lets you shove things, but not grasp, lift, or throw them. So I think the "No Manipulators" -40% limitation to ST can't be transferred over to TK.

If you look at Ham-Fisted, it's -5 or -10, and it penalizes all tasks that involve fine work. Now, the cost of two arms is implicitly 20 points, so that's -25% to give a manipulator -3 to DX for fine tasks, and -50% to give it -6.

Extra Arm already provides -50% for No Physical Attack, which stops an arm from punching or wielding melee weapons. That suggests that the ability of a limb to strike crushing blows and wield melee weapons is worth 5 points, which is commensurate with Striker costing 5 points.

GURPS Psionic Powers includes Cannot Punch: "Your TK is the ability to move objects, specifically. You cannot punch a foe with an invisible fist; you
need to pick something up and hit him with it." It's -10%.

I might suggest Cannot Punch, -10%, combined with Ham-Fisted -6, -50%, for -60%. With that, you can't punch at all, and you are at -6 to DX to do any delicate manipulation telekinetically. That gives you a net 2 points/level for TK.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by whswhs

[...] but it also prevents you from grasping firmly, which is a core feature of TK as you envision it.

[...]

I might suggest Cannot Punch, -10%, combined with Ham-Fisted -6, -50%, for -60%. With that, you can't punch at all, and you are at -6 to DX to do any delicate manipulation telekinetically. That gives you a net 2 points/level for TK.

I wasn't aware that No fine maipulators prevented grasping. For instance, I would have though a dog had Not fine manipulators. But it can still bite down on something and carry it around? ... Like a stick, a puppy or a ticking grenade.

But yes your suggestions seems on par with my estimate. but it's always nice to have some reasoning for the values. Thanks! :D

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Maz

I wasn't aware that No fine maipulators prevented grasping. For instance, I would have though a dog had Not fine manipulators. But it can still bite down on something and carry it around? ... Like a stick, a puppy or a ticking grenade.

The Basic Set says "even to grasp firmly." That might be comparable to Bad Grip at some level. It doesn't quite say "to grasp."

Mouth grip is an oddity in GURPS anyway. It actually seems possible to hold something more firmly in clenched teeth than in your hand (though at a risk of tooth damage). And many creatures that have No Fine Manipulators or even No Manipulators still have mouths. I think that the mouth is sort of a free manipulator.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Maz

I wasn't aware that No fine maipulators prevented grasping. For instance, I would have though a dog had Not fine manipulators. But it can still bite down on something and carry it around? ... Like a stick, a puppy or a ticking grenade.

But yes your suggestions seems on par with my estimate. but it's always nice to have some reasoning for the values. Thanks! :D

I've used NFM and it seems to fit well if you envision all of your TK being a push akin to a slam or push but lacking the ability to grab or manipulate. Naturally TK throwing via a shove need to take as long as it would to pick it up and heave it, but you an explain the time difference in terms of different mental preparation.

Using Temporary Disadvantage (Ham Fisted or otherwise) seems rather odd as your character would have a similar penalty to doing normal physical activities while your TK is engaged unless you further restricted that limitation.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The Basic Set says "even to grasp firmly." That might be comparable to Bad Grip at some level. It doesn't quite say "to grasp."

Mouth grip is an oddity in GURPS anyway. It actually seems possible to hold something more firmly in clenched teeth than in your hand (though at a risk of tooth damage). And many creatures that have No Fine Manipulators or even No Manipulators still have mouths. I think that the mouth is sort of a free manipulator.

Considering that basic set lists a Gryphon as having no fine manipulators and specifies that it has the front feet of an eagle, and an eagle can most certainly grasp firmly, I suspect the actual intended meaning is 'unable to wield weapons'. However, that probably does include being unable to throw rocks.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Considering that basic set lists a Gryphon as having no fine manipulators and specifies that it has the front feet of an eagle, and an eagle can most certainly grasp firmly, I suspect the actual intended meaning is 'unable to wield weapons'. However, that probably does include being unable to throw rocks.

Also, while I would say that a telekinetic cannot punch, I would surely allow one to pick up a baseball bat and whack people with it.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Considering that basic set lists a Gryphon as having no fine manipulators and specifies that it has the front feet of an eagle, and an eagle can most certainly grasp firmly, I suspect the actual intended meaning is 'unable to wield weapons'. However, that probably does include being unable to throw rocks.

I use this ruling all the time: if you can't weild weapons, or do technological stuff, its no fine manipulators, its close enough to intent. I would not allow full throwing in such a setup though. Perhaps clumsy dropping, but accurate, energy boosted throwing is very much a technological trait.

[Culture20]

Even with no hands (worse than NFM), you can pick up and move objects by using more than one limb in tandem on each side of the object. It's certainly not ideal, and I would force DX based rolls. With TK NFM, I would think picking up a gun and throwing it would be possible, but toggling the safety, releasing the magazine, or pulling the trigger would all be impossible. Maybe like invisible hands with fingertips the size of ping pong balls, so they make it hard to do anything other than moving/throwing stuff.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I use this ruling all the time: if you can't weild weapons, or do technological stuff, its no fine manipulators, its close enough to intent. I would not allow full throwing in such a setup though. Perhaps clumsy dropping, but accurate, energy boosted throwing is very much a technological trait.

Well, yes, but at least as I envision telekinesis, it might not let you type, or play the violin, or pick a lock, but if it lets you throw things, it ought to let you wield melee weapons, if not pull the trigger on a firearm. And throwing things around a room is a classic poltergeist bit. So NFM seems too restrictive.

GURPS really has three different traits that restrict handling things: Bad Grip, Ham-Fisted, and No Fine Manipulators/No Manipulators. So it's kind of a question which one is the closest fit to the described limitations on TK.