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Old 10-30-2016, 01:44 PM   #1
Angle
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Default Building unbounded advantages

So I'm considering running a supers game where a lot of the advantages allow their users to cause permanent effects - permanently animating bronze statues, creating matter from nothing, (Without spending character points!), etc, etc. This runs directly contrary to one of GURPS core balance assumptions, that you can't use powers to get ahead so easily - you can't use create to just permanently create items, your Telekinesis (Animation) must run out, etc, etc.

But for this game I want to break that assumption. Does anyone have any advice on how to build such abilities, or how to go about balancing them, or rather making the game interesting? A big part of it will be making the NPCs react dynamically to such things, so if somebody starts pumping out gold the price of gold will eventually start to drop, and they may find themselves becoming a target of unscrupulous characters, alarmed government officials, etc.
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Old 10-30-2016, 02:01 PM   #2
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Allowing Create to be permanent is a setting decision the GM is allowed to make. Just expect your economy to get a bit unstable.

As far as animating statues goes? Pay points if you want to buy it as an Ally. Otherwise, no repairs once it breaks. So, PCs can animate all the statues they want, but, any they don't pay points for require finding another statue and rolling again to replace.
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Old 10-30-2016, 02:07 PM   #3
Angle
 
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

I was thinking more the power to go and animate as many statues as you want, permanently until they're destroyed. So the player could go and start making a giant army if they wish, though they should be advised that some people might get a little worked about that...

So far I've got Telekinesis, with Animation, -20%, Independent, +70%, Cosmic: No splitting TK between animated Objects, +300%, and then Permanent, +???%. And a limitation for only being able to animate bronze, but thats not so important here.

Though on second thought, this still leaves the statues useing her skills and DX, while I want them to act more like they're own characters, albeit fairly simple ones. Maybe I should use some variation on Allies instead?
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Old 10-30-2016, 02:24 PM   #4
ericthered
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

With create, either make the player take the appropriate wealth advantage (I'm a multimillionaire because I can conjure enough steel for this level of wealth) Or promise not to abuse his power in that fashion (certainly a valid genre convention). It doesn't break the game. It just means his power-set is more expansive than initially thought. Remember: pay for the effects.

With the statues, go for a similar route: what's the actual effect of the statue? is there anything preventing an ally group of 100,000* from being effective?

* 30 points with base level frequency of appearance and built on 25% of character points.

The problems are similar to ones faced by a necromancer, and I kind of wrote a blog article on them. It describes one way to handle undead, and allows the creation of armies of the size you are describing. I hope it helps.
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Old 10-30-2016, 02:50 PM   #5
NineDaysDead
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle View Post
So I'm considering running a supers game where a lot of the advantages allow their users to cause permanent effects - permanently animating bronze statues, creating matter from nothing, (Without spending character points!), etc, etc. This runs directly contrary to one of GURPS core balance assumptions, that you can't use powers to get ahead so easily - you can't use create to just permanently create items, your Telekinesis (Animation) must run out, etc, etc.

But for this game I want to break that assumption. Does anyone have any advice on how to build such abilities, or how to go about balancing them, or rather making the game interesting?
That's not actually one of GURPS core assumptions. You can do those things, they just cost a lot of points!

Unlimited Creation:

Snatcher (Creation +100%; Permanent +300%) [400].

Bronze Statue Animation can be done with Affliction.
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Old 10-30-2016, 05:16 PM   #6
McAllister
 
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Basic Set has permanent for +150%. Don't let anyone try to convince you to spend +300% on Permanent, that's a stick used to punish players for trying to do things that, in your campaign, aren't abusive. I'd also strongly recommend multiplicative modifiers, so limitations can defray the +150% cost of making things permanent.

Now, why would the statues have their own skill or DX values? Telekinesis lets them move, but it sounds like you want to turn them into people. Allies is another one of those Advantages that designed specific not to do what you want to do, so I recommend an Affliction, or perhaps the Control Advantage.
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Old 10-30-2016, 05:19 PM   #7
starslayer
 
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Agree with ninedaysdead

There is no core assumption of non-permanance in GURPS- it exists, its well established.

What there is, however, is a constraint of is that 'you don't get something for nothing'. If you can animate statues and they stay animated forever, just buy up extended duration on your power until its permanent.

If you ALSO want to keep a bunch of statues around as personal bodyguards and servants, that's ally /w summon-able- that there will be a minor accessibility limitation from your ability to make statues is moot- if you want allies, you need the ally advantage.

By the same token if your ability should by all rights let you generate money, take wealth and independent income.

I had this basic argument with a player in one of my games a while ago- he had built himself a very capable 'upper crust' sort of vampire, with some expensive gear and potent supernatural abilities. He took on a few quests and in at least one of them the enemy was strong enough to jeapordize his weapon (sheerly by weight), and he noticed that the pay for the quest was going to be less than the cost of buying a new sword. Quite the heated discussion was had about how someone with his skill should not be taking jobs for that ammount of money and that he should be earning more- my response was that he was right, but that by leaving his character at default wealth than that is exactly what the PC does.
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Old 10-30-2016, 05:24 PM   #8
NineDaysDead
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Basic Set has permanent for +150%. Don't let anyone try to convince you to spend +300% on Permanent, that's a stick used to punish players for trying to do things that, in your campaign, aren't abusive. I'd also strongly recommend multiplicative modifiers, so limitations can defray the +150% cost of making things permanent.
Basic Set has permanent for +300%, or +150% with a built in break condition:
Quote:
Originally Posted by basic page 105
Permanent* +150%
* You must specify a reasonable set of conditions that will dispel the effect (or cure it, for abilities such as Affliction and Mind Control). The GM is the judge of what is “reasonable.” If there is no way to end the effect, the enhancement is +300%.
If everything you've created can be dispelled by someone saying "kltpzyxM" then take +150%, but if it's as permanent as anything else then spend +300%.
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Old 10-30-2016, 06:52 PM   #9
starslayer
 
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Basic Set has permanent for +150%. Don't let anyone try to convince you to spend +300% on Permanent, that's a stick used to punish players for trying to do things that, in your campaign, aren't abusive. I'd also strongly recommend multiplicative modifiers, so limitations can defray the +150% cost of making things permanent.

Now, why would the statues have their own skill or DX values? Telekinesis lets them move, but it sounds like you want to turn them into people. Allies is another one of those Advantages that designed specific not to do what you want to do, so I recommend an Affliction, or perhaps the Control Advantage.
If that's your mindset of it- I don't think that as a GM I'd be comfortable with you taking either variety of permanent, or even duration that last longer than 'a scene'.

The issue here is how often 'reasonable countermeasures' are going to come up. If I saw someone take the +150% version then I would make ~1 in every 10 combat situations see the specific countermeasure 'pre-loaded' (IE one of your opponents has access to and knowledge of the countermeasure), and anyone who is afflicted by such +150% permanent affliction, or is preparing to deal with such, will be able to get the countermeasure in question. This 'base rate' could be changed based on other factors, like how secretive the PC is about using there powers or obsfucating the dispelling condition, there own background, support advantage (like zeroed) etc.
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Old 10-30-2016, 07:55 PM   #10
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Building unbounded advantages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle View Post
But for this game I want to break that assumption. Does anyone have any advice on how to build such abilities, or how to go about balancing them, or rather making the game interesting? A big part of it will be making the NPCs react dynamically to such things, so if somebody starts pumping out gold the price of gold will eventually start to drop, and they may find themselves becoming a target of unscrupulous characters, alarmed government officials, etc.
The ability to generate vast wealth isn't really imbalanced...or at least, it's something you can already price out easily enough, and at a not-too-appalling price. Making someone's gold-creation ability disrupt the price of gold might be realistic (particularly if they produce a lot or are known to be able to) but is hardly necessary for balance. You just probably want to make them pay for the level of Wealth they actually have rather than the imaginary level they would have if they lacked power-derived riches. Wealth being exponential and relatively modest priced, that's manageable.

On the economic side you might have an interesting problem if a character has enough economic power to do major setting-shaping things, but I don't think GURPS really tries to price 'you can change the world'. Might want to settle for making sure that all players who care about that have PCs who can play at that level.


The Infinite Army Accumulator powerset, on the other hand...while you can sort of price 'has a private army', 'has a private army as big as the global population' is kind of a sticky issue, and the requirement to spend a while accumulating them is a rather soft Limitation on that.
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