When does Hard to kill count? Bleed/Poison etc.

[Ryo]

The way we currently run things in my group is very simple, with a bonus to death rolls only. The rest of my group says that is the way the advantage was intended, but the wording of the advantage itself makes me somewhat doubt it.

It specifically states this:

"Each level of hard to kill gives +1 for HT rolls made for survival at -HP or below, and on any HT roll where failure means instant death"-B.58.

It is specifically the "survival at -HP" part that makes me wonder.
Does this include bleeding rolls, resistance rolls against poisons and other rolls against HT at -HP that are not necessarily lethal, as in not requiring a death roll after the potential damage? I'm specifically interested in whether it helps against bleeding doh.

Now if it did give such bonuses, then let's take this a bit further. A player is on -HP and is trying to lift a heavy stone off his body after the mine he was in collapsed. Would he get a bonus from hard to kill to his lifting skill in order to help get the rock off himself, and then a +1 in running to get out of the collapsing mine. And continously get a bonus to the HT roll to stay conscious through the entire ordeal?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ryo

The way we currently run things in my group is very simple, with a bonus to death rolls only. The rest of my group says that is the way the advantage was intended, but the wording of the advantage itself makes me somewhat doubt it.

It specifically states this:
It is specifically the "survival at -HP" part that makes me wonder.
Does this include bleeding rolls, resistance rolls against poisons and other rolls against HT at -HP that are not necessarily lethal, as in not requiring a death roll after the potential damage? I'm specifically interested in whether it helps against bleeding doh.

Now if it did give such bonuses, then let's take this a bit further. A player is on -HP and is trying to lift a heavy stone off his body after the mine he was in collapsed. Would he get a bonus from hard to kill to his lifting skill in order to help get the rock off himself, and then a +1 in running to get out of the collapsing mine. And continously get a bonus to the HT roll to stay conscious through the entire ordeal?

My understanding is that it applies specifically and only to rolls against the HT attribute which test for death specifically. Not to any other rolls.

[Ryo]

Yeah, I suppose it was maybe intended as this?
"Rolls made for suvival at -HP or below." = regular death rolls.
"On any HT roll where failure means instant death." = Death rays etc that are resistable with HT.

[Nereidalbel]

The "instant death" part is anything using Affliction: Heart Attack. Being crushed by a rock or trapped in a mine is a slow death, not instant.

[Varyon]

Having it apply to Bleeding probably wouldn't break anything (we previously worked out that a Perk would be sufficient for +3 against bleeding, [2] would work for +8, based on Resistant and IT: No Blood), but I'm fairly confident it isn't meant to do that. Resistance to passing out is well outside its intent - get Hard to Subdue for that. While a bonus to HT checks necessary to get out of danger fits with the "hard to kill" archetype, it's also probably a bit too much for the Advantage.

[Ryo]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The "instant death" part is anything using Affliction: Heart Attack. Being crushed by a rock or trapped in a mine is a slow death, not instant.

The mine example was mostly reffering to the "survival at -HP" part, not the "instant death" part of hard to kill. Also the mine example in itself is kind of far out, focus on the bleeding and poison portion of my first post as both those would directly benefit the survival of the player.

For the "instant death" I suppose it's a good norm to follow, that it helps mainly to HT resistance roll against afflictions modified with heart attack. It is also mentioned in powers(p.169.).

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ryo

The mine example was mostly reffering to the "survival at -HP" part, not the "instant death" part of hard to kill. Also the mine example in itself is kind of far out, focus on the bleeding and poison portion of my first post as both those would directly benefit the survival of the player.

For the "instant death" I suppose it's a good norm to follow, that it helps mainly to HT resistance roll against afflictions modified with heart attack. It is also mentioned in powers(p.169.).

HT rolls to stay conscious have their own advantage. *Death* by bleeding/poison gets the bonus from Hard to Kill, but, again, there is a separate advantage for rolls to stay conscious.

[Varyon]

I forgot about the poison rolls. That is definitely not the purview of Hard to Kill - get Resistant (Poisons) if you want an HT bonus there. If the poison has an instant death effect, however, Hard to Kill should apply (I could also see a resistance roll that failing would drop you to -5xHP benefiting, but that's an edge case).

One thing to note here - this is where the underpricing of HT rears its ugly head. Hard to Kill costs [2], Hard to Subdue costs [2], but HT only costs [10] and includes both of these, a bonus to resist poisons, a bonus to resist bleeding, a bonus to HT-based skills, a bonus to all other HT checks, a +0.25 to Basic Speed (worth [5]) and a +1 to FP (worth [3]). HT! is easily abusable - HT should either cost more ([url=http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-price-of-fitness.htmlDouglas Cole[/url] pegged it at at least [20]) or you shouldn't be allowed to break it up - buying +0.25 to BS or +1 to FP is fine, using a previous BS/FP purchase to get an effective discount on HT is fine, buying down BS you get from DX is fine, but any BS or FP you get from HT should be set in stone.

[Mailanka]

It only applies to HT rolls made when you need to see whether or not your character dies, either "instant death" effects, or when you hit -1xHP (or similar).

It doesn't matter how you get there. Did you get to -1xHP because someone hit you really hard with a hammer? You get +HtK to see if you survive. Did you take 1 point of damage per hour from being slowly crushed by a rock and you just hit -1xHP? You get +HtK. Did you fail a bunch of health rolls against poison/bleeding/freezing to death and that dropped you to -1xHP? You get +HtK to see if you survive.

You've been poisoned! Every minute, toll HT or lose 1d6 hp. No HtK
You've lost so many HP you're at -HP? Did you die? Roll HT to find out (and add HtK)

It never stops the poison or the bleeding or keeps you from being stunned, but it will keep you from dying (unless you're at -5xHP, in which case, you're just dead)