Media for new RPG products - Page 2

Armin · 12-07-2020, 05:15 PM

I love my Kindle for novels. But stuff with art sucks on it. For anything with any sort of structured display areas, epub and other such re-flowable formats that I've encountered seem to lose any semblance of readability.

ETA: I remember having some manuals years ago that used the re-flowable version of PDF. A couple of them actually worked very nicely, but I suspect that they required a lot of work to set up correctly.

Daigoro · 12-07-2020, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armin

I love my Kindle for novels. But stuff with art sucks on it.

I had to stop reading Neal Stephenson's DODO on Kindle and go to the PC because of this. It had lots of problems- being unable to read to the bottom of a page, randomly jumping ahead a number of pages, it thinking I'd finished the book, only being able to read at one zoom level, etc. Normal pages were fine, but it was the pages with a background underlay of art that screwed it up.

I also tried reading some GURPS PDFs on the Kindle, but the amount of zooming round the page to follow columns and text boxes made it impossible. I'd either print them out or read them on the PC.

Gnomasz · 12-09-2020, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarson

I think Apple for it's book application has a extended form of epub that allows for tables and such for textbooks. Hopefully there will be a more open standard that does the same.

Epub doesn't need to be extended to handle tables. They've been in the specification for ages. Alas, implementation in the readers is lacking. And that's, imho, the one and only problem with the format: implementation. (So it's actually not the format).

Quote:

Originally Posted by cptbutton

I am a cranky old man who has never gotten into these newfangled formats because text, HTML, and PDF are good enough for me.

Well, epub is pretty much HTML. And with DnD Beyond, actual HTML is probably the dominant reflowable format in the industry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armin

I love my Kindle for novels. But stuff with art sucks on it.

I Have the same experience, both on my dedicated e-reader and in smartphone apps. The infuriating part is, the files are made properly, and yet they're not read properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agemegos

I'm a little bit surprised to see re-flowable formats such as EPUB and MOBI polling so poorly. Do you think that have prospects for the future, and if not, why not? Is it that RPG materials depend extensively on tables?

Well, the question was "what do you read" and not "what would you like to read" – and epub and mobi are simply unavailable most of the time.
But I still do think they are the future. They're just that much better to read on a smartphone than fixed-layout formats.

Kalzazz · 12-09-2020, 08:45 AM

I just don't find the occasional zooming etc to be a significant bother, it's just understood to me is what I do with a phone

The significantly higher weight and bulk of a Kindle vs a phone makes it not desirable to me

I find actually typing on a phone, especially using odd characters other than just letters, numbers period and comma a real drag compared to a legit PC though.

RyanW · 12-09-2020, 09:36 PM

Almost all PDF (simply because it's usually what is available for what I play). If I'm just reading a book, I'll usually have it on my tablet. If I'm working on something (writing up setting material, working out houserules, or putting together a character) I'll have it on my desktop PC.

Agemegos · 12-10-2020, 04:12 PM

This is all very interesting.

I have been providing my material in PDF and EPUB, and laying it out on the basis that the PDFs would be printed out or read on letter-sized or larger screens, while the EPUB would be used on digest-sized and smaller tablets and phones. So I've laid out the PDFs with 19 mm (¾") or wider margins in 11-point type in double columns. Since they are likely to be read on smaller screens it might be a good idea to use narrower margins and larger type. Perhaps I ought to consider supplying two PDFs: letter-sized in double columns for printout and large screens, and a separate digest-sized version in a single column of larger type.

ericthered · 12-11-2020, 10:24 AM

I read the format I'm given.

I prefer PDF, if only because I'm familiar with it and I've been building up tools to work with it. web sites are also nice, as long as they are well written and formatted.

I don't like epub. I'm not sure why. Maybe its new, maybe its the way it tries so hard to emulate a book, maybe its because I don't like the fairly limited software I read it with, and maybe because I prefer searching and scrolling to flipping pages.

Armin · 12-11-2020, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agemegos

I have been providing my material in PDF and EPUB, and laying it out on the basis that the PDFs would be printed out or read on letter-sized or larger screens, while the EPUB would be used on digest-sized and smaller tablets and phones. So I've laid out the PDFs with 19 mm (¾") or wider margins in 11-point type in double columns. Since they are likely to be read on smaller screens it might be a good idea to use narrower margins and larger type. Perhaps I ought to consider supplying two PDFs: letter-sized in double columns for printout and large screens, and a separate digest-sized version in a single column of larger type.

I've found that the only PDFs that I enjoy reading on my iPad are digest-sized. Full sized books on the screen generally have to be zoomed a bit, and that means scrolling around, and that becomes really annoying really quickly, so I stop reading them. Digest-sized fits great on the screen, no extra zooming or scrolling required.

(Honestly, if I used one of those trimmer apps to trim most margins down, this might not be so bad, except for the prevalence of tiny fonts in game books. But I can't be bothered to do extra work to try reading a book I may not even like.)

I'm getting older, and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, but I don't always have reading glasses to hand because I'm not yet used to needing them. I've found many books use far too small a font, and I thought that even when I had younger, rock-solid eyes.

I applaud you for using 11pt type. I likely still wouldn't read your double-column book on my tablet, but at least it's miles ahead of many other books! I'd love that when printed.

ak_aramis · 12-14-2020, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarson

I think Apple for it's book application has a extended form of epub that allows for tables and such for textbooks. Hopefully there will be a more open standard that does the same.

EPub 3 supports standard HTML tables. Since 2010.
IIRC, simple (no colspan/rowspan) HTML tables are supported in EPub 2.

http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/html/tables.html

Isikyus · 01-07-2021, 05:23 AM

If I'm using something at the table, I'll usually print a copy. Even on a laptop screen, I find there's never enough space for all the documents I want open at once. It's also much easier to hand sheets of paper around if neccessary.

For what I write myself, or if I have to use electronic rules, I favour HTML. It's shareable, works on anything with a browser, and it's better for cross-referencing different rules than PDF scrolling -- especially wiki-style HTML like Paizo PRDs. It also prints adequately in a pinch.

That said, what I buy is usually PDF, as no-one's selling HTML (and I'm not very confident using ebook formats).

View Poll Results: In what medium do you find yourself using new RPG products these days?
Commercially printed books	17	40.48%
Downloaded and printed	11	26.19%
Fixed-layout format (e.g. PDF) on a large screen (e.g. desktop monitor, laptop)	26	61.90%
Fixed-layout format (e.g. PDF) on a tablet	18	42.86%
Fixed-layout format (e.g. PDF) on a small screen (e.g. phone)	5	11.90%
Re-flowable format files (e.g. EPUB, Kindle)	1	2.38%
Something even more hip than that.	0	0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

12-07-2020, 05:15 PM	#11
Armin GCA Prime Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Portland, OR	Re: Media for new RPG products I love my Kindle for novels. But stuff with art sucks on it. For anything with any sort of structured display areas, epub and other such re-flowable formats that I've encountered seem to lose any semblance of readability. ETA: I remember having some manuals years ago that used the re-flowable version of PDF. A couple of them actually worked very nicely, but I suspect that they required a lot of work to set up correctly. __________________ Armin D. Sykes \| Visit my GCA5 blog for updates and previews. \| Get GURPS Character Assistant 5 now at Warehouse 23.

12-09-2020, 08:45 AM	#14
Kalzazz Join Date: Feb 2009	Re: Media for new RPG products I just don't find the occasional zooming etc to be a significant bother, it's just understood to me is what I do with a phone The significantly higher weight and bulk of a Kindle vs a phone makes it not desirable to me I find actually typing on a phone, especially using odd characters other than just letters, numbers period and comma a real drag compared to a legit PC though.

12-09-2020, 09:36 PM	#15
RyanW ☣ Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southeast NC	Re: Media for new RPG products Almost all PDF (simply because it's usually what is available for what I play). If I'm just reading a book, I'll usually have it on my tablet. If I'm working on something (writing up setting material, working out houserules, or putting together a character) I'll have it on my desktop PC. __________________ RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats.

12-10-2020, 04:12 PM	#16
Agemegos Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oz	Re: Media for new RPG products This is all very interesting. I have been providing my material in PDF and EPUB, and laying it out on the basis that the PDFs would be printed out or read on letter-sized or larger screens, while the EPUB would be used on digest-sized and smaller tablets and phones. So I've laid out the PDFs with 19 mm (¾") or wider margins in 11-point type in double columns. Since they are likely to be read on smaller screens it might be a good idea to use narrower margins and larger type. Perhaps I ought to consider supplying two PDFs: letter-sized in double columns for printout and large screens, and a separate digest-sized version in a single column of larger type. __________________ Decay is inherent in all composite things. Nod head. Get treat.

12-11-2020, 10:24 AM	#17
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Media for new RPG products I read the format I'm given. I prefer PDF, if only because I'm familiar with it and I've been building up tools to work with it. web sites are also nice, as long as they are well written and formatted. I don't like epub. I'm not sure why. Maybe its new, maybe its the way it tries so hard to emulate a book, maybe its because I don't like the fairly limited software I read it with, and maybe because I prefer searching and scrolling to flipping pages. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

01-07-2021, 05:23 AM	#20
Isikyus Join Date: Feb 2020	Re: Media for new RPG products If I'm using something at the table, I'll usually print a copy. Even on a laptop screen, I find there's never enough space for all the documents I want open at once. It's also much easier to hand sheets of paper around if neccessary. For what I write myself, or if I have to use electronic rules, I favour HTML. It's shareable, works on anything with a browser, and it's better for cross-referencing different rules than PDF scrolling -- especially wiki-style HTML like Paizo PRDs. It also prints adequately in a pinch. That said, what I buy is usually PDF, as no-one's selling HTML (and I'm not very confident using ebook formats).