3rd ED newbie questions regarding points

[netskink]

Hello

I've never played GURPS but I have bought a few of the rulebooks and I'm trying to understand the rules. I understand their are difference between 3rd and 4rth editions, but this question is regarding the third edition.

In the basic set 3rd edition book and in the free pdf for "Caravan to Ein Arris"
there are characters provided with a specified skill points and a set of attributes, advantages, disadvantages, skill, and quirks.

I have calculated most of the points myself and have matched the provided results. Some I have not. Please correct my calculations below:

(These characters are listed in the 3rd edition basic book as well as the separate adventure book)

Karhan 100 points

// In third edition the attributes have a flat rate for points. ie. st delta = iq delta = dx delta = ht delta

Attributes

• st 13 -> 30
• dx 13 -> 30
• iq 12 -> 20
• ht 11-> 10

subtotal 90

Advantages/Disadvantages

• Handsome -> 15
• Laziness -> -10
• Lecherous -> -15
• Overconfidence. -> -10
• Voice. -> 10

subtotal -10

Quirks

x5

subtotal -5


Skills

Broadsword 16 phy/avg dx=13 -> dx+3 -> 16
Fast-Talk 13 men/avg iq=12 -> iq+1 -> 4
Gambling 14 men/avg iq=12 -> iq+2 -> 6
Knife 14 phy/easy dx=13 -> dx+1 -> 2
Leadership 14 men/avg iq=12 -> iq+2 -> 6
Riding
Horse Riding 14 phy/avg dx=13 -> dx+1 -> 4

subtotal 38

total: 38-5-10+90 = 113

113 > 100

How is this possible? What am I doing wrong? A similar case exists with Kira, and Riana

[Rolando]

In the advantages it is a positive 10 total...

You are not doing anything wrong by the way.

Not all characters are 100 points total, it is just a recommended starting level for player characters.

In fact you may play with "superheroes" with 500pts or more. And NPC sure are not defined nor limited by points.

[netskink]

Originally Posted by Rolando

In the advantages it is a positive 10 total...

I'm not following. Here are the values.

15
-10
-15
-10
10

=15-10-15-10+10 = -10

Originally Posted by Rolando

You are not doing anything wrong by the way.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Rolando

Not all characters are 100 points total, it is just a recommended starting level for player characters.

Hmm. I assumed since they are providing points and then skills, they would add up correctly. It's kind of a drag to be honest. The other characters
are way off. I just listed this one since its less to calculate/post.

Originally Posted by Rolando

In fact you may play with "superheroes" with 500pts or more. And NPC sure are not defined nor limited by points.

Yes, I understand

Thanks for your quick reply though. I wish there were more samples in the older material which could be validated. If what you are saying is correct, the ones provided can't be used to verify skill calculations.

I only harp on this because I have bought a few more books including fourth editions and the dummies guide to gurps. In the dummies book, it mentions a skill bonus points method. Note, in 4rth edition, there is not two tables for physical vs mental skills. Its just one table.

Let me summarize that material here.

Bonus from Defaults

JoeBlow
iq=14
dx=9

Picks Stealth Skill

Stealth
DX/AVG
Defaults DX-5 or IQ-5

Desired Skill = 9

Using DX, DX=9, SKILL=9 = ATTR -> 2 via avg column
Using IQ, IQ=14, SKILL=9 = ATTR-5 -> 0 points

However, default is IQ-5, so SKILL=9, is same so 2 bonus points

Desired Skill = 10

Using DX, DX=9, SKILL=10 = ATTR+1 -> 4 via avg column
Using IQ, IQ=14, SKILL=10 = ATTR-4 -> 0 points

However, we have 2 bonus points, so skill level cost is
= 4 - 2 (bonus) = 2

I thought although it is not explicitly mentioned in 3rd edition, something like this was occurring.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by netskink;2504779t this question is regarding the third edition.


(These characters are listed in the 3rd edition basic book as well as the separate adventure book)

[B

Karhan 100 points [/B]

// In third edition the attributes have a flat rate for points. ie. st delta = iq delta = dx delta = ht delta

Attributes

• st 13 -> 30
• dx 13 -> 30
• iq 12 -> 20
• ht 11-> 10

a

This is only true for Attributes in 3e up to 13. 14 costs a total of 45 and costs go up again every couple of levels.

[Pursuivant]

Your math is accurate, you've just got too many points in skills for a 100 point character.

If it helps, calculate attributes first because they're the big point sinks. That gives you a sense of how many points you have left for advantages and skills and how many disadvantages you'll need to take.

Attributes: Your total is 90, which gives you 10 points to play with.

Advantages: Handsome, +15; Voice, +10. = +25

That puts you 15 points over 100 points, so time for some disadvantages and quirks:

Disads: Laziness, -10; Lecherous, -15; Overconfident, -10. = -35
Quirks: -5 points.

115 - 40 = 75 points spent so far, so 25 points for skills.

Currently, you've got 38 points in skills, so you're need to lose 13 points to stay within your 25 point budget.

This sort of "less than perfect" build is very common for beginning 100 point or less characters.

The obvious target is Broadsword-16, drop it to 15 and you save 8 points, 5 points to go. Still a dangerous swordsman, but not quite where he'd like to be.

The next easy target is Leadership skill. It's usually not a "life or death" skill where a bad dice roll might kill you. Skill level 12 is professional competence, so drop skill to 12 and save 4 points.

1 point to go. Gambling and Knife skills are the next least hurtful cuts because Knife is a backup weapon and Gambling might get bonuses for factors you can engineer (e.g., getting your opponents drunk).

It's easiest to shave a point of Knife skill, dropping it to just DX. Skill 13 isn't that bad.

You're now at 100 points.

In play, dedicate any earned experience points to boost Broadsword, Knife and Leadership skills. One play session might give you enough points to get back those lost points in Knife and Leadership.

And yes, point balancing to stay within a character point limit is a hassle. You'll get the hang of it.

There are spreadsheets and standalone programs that automate character design if you're more comfortable doing it that way. At least one is free and shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.

[netskink]

Hello Pursiviant,

Many thanks. This is not my character I am trying to create. Instead it's the character in the "Steve Jackson's GURPS Generic Universal RolePlaying System Basic Set Third Edition".

I thought it might have a typo for the npc, but its identical to the similar npc listed in the "Gurps Caravan to Win Arris An e23 adventure for GURPS from Steve Jackson Games for 3 to 6 players"

Here is the npc stats as listed in the PDF

KARHAN,THE BRIGAND CHIEF 100 POINTS
Karhan and Kira met at a festival a year ago, and were smit- ten with each other for all the wrong reasons. Kira ran away to join Karhan of her own free will. Together, they cooked up the plan to extort $50,000 from her father. But after a couple of weeks with Kira, the brigand decided he’d rather have $50,000 than $50,000 and Kira. She tried to scratch his eyes out; he had her imprisoned for real. He will now happily exchange her for the ransom, if given the chance.

Late 20s; Golden skin, black hair in ponytail, black eyes; 5’11”, 160 lbs.

ST 13, DX 13, IQ 12, HT 11. Basic Speed 6; Move 6. Dodge 6, Parry 7.

No armor, no encumbrance.

Advantages:
Handsome (+2 reaction for same sex, +4 for oppo- site sex);
Voice (+2 to all reactions).

Disadvantages:
Laziness; Lecherousness (must roll to avoid making a pass at women); Overconfidence.

Quirks:
Conceited and susceptible to flattery;
Loves music;
Arrogant;
Likes to gamble;
Easily bored.

Skills:
Broadsword-16;
Fast-Talk-13;
Gambling-14;
Horse Riding-14;
Knife-14;
Leadership-14.

Weapons:
Broadsword: 2 dice cutting, 1d+1 crushing;
Knife (large): 1d+2 cutting, 1 die impaling.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Not all characters are 100 points total

No, but the character that netskink is looking at is listed as having 100 points.

Originally Posted by netskink

I assumed since they are providing points and then skills, they would add up correctly. It's kind of a drag to be honest. The other characters are way off. I just listed this one since its less to calculate/post.

This adventure has been "converted" several times since its appearance in the original GURPS boxed set. I would guess that the original numbers changed but weren't checked. It's possible that Karhan's Voice advantage is being applied to some of his skills that aren't in the list of skills that Voice is supposed to give a bonus to — other characters who have Voice AND one of those skills don't make any mention of its being added, so any bonuses would be silent.

You are correct that if they give you the point values of these NPCs, their listed traits SHOULD add up. On the other hand, these NPCs aren't really here as examples of how to create characters. They should have ignored the NPCs' point totals entirely.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

This adventure has been "converted" several times since its appearance in the original GURPS boxed set. I would guess that the original numbers changed but weren't checked. It's possible that Karhan's Voice advantage is being applied to some of his skills that aren't in the list of skills that Voice is supposed to give a bonus to — other characters who have Voice AND one of those skills don't make any mention of its being added, so any bonuses would be silent.

Is it possible that the bonus for Voice was applied to Gambling and Leadership as well (it shouldn't be, at least by current rules)? Reducing Gambling, Leadership, and Fast Talk by two purchased levels to account for that bonus would reduce the excess points to just 2 (if my math is right, it's been a LONG time since I looked at 3e pricing).

I suspect it was a math error that didn't get caught, or a change at some point (either before initial publication or during a reprint/update edit) that never got properly calculated. Possibly with the above described Voice skill modifier baked into the skill levels.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by netskink

Many thanks. This is not my character I am trying to create. Instead it's the character in the "Steve Jackson's GURPS Generic Universal RolePlaying System Basic Set Third Edition".

In that case it's not your error, it's an editor's mistake that should have been caught sometime in the last millennium. Report it to errata@sjgames.com.

I checked the GURPS errata list and there's no errata for the adventure in either GURPS 3E or GURPS 4E form. That's silly since it's a free introductory adventure for new players and GMs.

You're probably not the first newbie to get confused by the bad stats, you're just the first to complain on the SJG forums.

As Stormcrow said, Caravan to Ein Arris is really old. It originally came as its own pamphlet in the GURPS 2E boxed set. There have been lots of changes to the GURPS rules since then including significant changes between GURPS 2E and 3E.

The good news for you (if you're the GM) is that NPCs don't have to play by the rules. They can have whatever traits you want them to have without worrying about point values. Point totals are just to give the GM a sense of how well an NPC might fare against a given PC. Even then, it's a matter of guesswork.

[Rolando]

Most of the time none of those things are important and if anything, the point total is the least important of all.

You may want to do the math and change the point total, don't waste time adjusting the character to meet the written total but the other way around, leave the NPCs as written and adjust the total to the correct one if you really want to.

But really, it makes no difference at all.

I missed the symbol probably by the way, I shouldn't do internet math without glasses :D