TG: Force Posture Change and 3way melee: can my shoulder-parrot help me sit up?

[Plane]

Posit for a moment we're observing a melee combat between the Disney characters Aladdin and Jafar. Jafar has his pet parrot Iago sitting on his shoulder. Iago is grappling Jafar's shoulder so he can get pulled along for the ride, and since grappling is mutual, Jafar's shoulder is grappling Iago for 0 CP.

Aladdin being a cunning rogue sucker-punches Jafar on the nose, and Jafar falls down. The punch and the fall create a total of 3 damage, which is more than 1/4 of Jafar's maximum HP of 11 (he's a big guy).

Adding insult to injury, as Jafar falls down he automatically drops his magic snake staff and Aladdin grabs it and begins to sprint away.

Jafar has a bit of a temper and fails his self-control roll and becomes Berserk (B124) He wants to smash that street rat!

On the first turn, Aladdin is still in range of Jafar's long legs, so Jafar is obligated to make an All-Out Attack. He aims a clumsy untrained kick at Aladdin's leg, and smartly chooses to make it Determined for +4 to hit instead of Strong for +2 to damage.

Unfortunately, Aladdin does an Acrobatic Dodge + Retreat and avoids the kick, and then uses his next maneuver as Move to bolt out of there.

Aladdin is no longer in reach of any melee weapons Jafar has, so Jafar is no longer obligated to make an All-Out Attack maneuver.

Although he knows a cantrip that would do the job (even though it is less powerful without his magic-amplifying staff) he is unable to cast that cantrip at Aladdin due to it requiring a Concentrate maneuver - you can't choose a Concentrate maneuver while you're berserk.

Besides - even if he already had a fireball summoned in his hand - he could not legally throw it at Aladdin until Aladdin was more than 20 yards away, and he's only a couple yards away at this point.

Instead he faces a new obligation: "If no foe is in range, you must use a Move maneuver to get as close as possible to a foe"

Jafar is currently in a lying position so per B367 he only has Move 1. It would be advantageous of him to be in a Standing posture so he could chase Aladdin at Move 5. Aladdin is faster w/ move 6, but will probably get slowed down by guards and palace traps, so Move 5 would probably allow Jafar to catch up once that caused Aladdin pause.

There is one possible option though - MA124 discusses how "Move and Attack" is an alternate option to Move. This is normally in the context of "if you can Move and Attack, or end your Move with a slam, you will."

Obviously if there is nothing to attack, a Berserker won't needlessly take the Move and Attack penalties and just use a Move maneuver to get closer.

But what if there IS something to attack, even if it's not your opponent? What if you instead used an "attack" to better your posture?

We already know that a Berserker is able to take an action besides movement or attacking, as MA179's box mentions Berserkers being able to use an All-Out Attack in lieu of a Ready to "set up" an attack technique.

This could be seen in a similar sense as using Move to "set up" a normal attack by getting in range of the foe, or how even reloading can be done as long as it just takes 1 second (not 2+)

[Plane]

I would posit that Move and Attack could be used to upright Jafar's posture. Via the use of the Force Posture Change technique in TG 37

Unlike using a Change Posture Maneuver (technically banned, unless there's an option to "use an All-Out Attack to rise to a higher posture instead of a Change Posture" option like we have for Readies) this would not be a guarantee - for FPC to succeed the technique requires a victory in a quick contest.

You need to be grappling to use the CPM technique, and luckily, Jafar is in a mutual grapple with Iago, so he can!

There is no penalty "To drive your foe to a lower posture" because Jafar is not trying to disrupt Iago's posture - he is perfectly content that his pet parrot remain standing atop his shoulder.

Per "rise to a higher posture yourself" it is a -2 penalty to the technique to move from lying to sitting. Then the following turn at a -1 penalty he can go from sitting to kneeling.

At that point, you can go from kneeling>standing using a "Step" so we don't need any further Hijinx.

Since it is possible to do "All-Out Attack: Double" one could even posit that one could make TWO sequential "Force Posture Change" techniques, to lie>sit then sit>kneel and use the 'free step' of the attack maneuver to stand up, all in a single second.

Force Posture Change defaults to DX, but it's okay if Jafar has a low DX - he can also subsitute his trained ST for his DX in the Quick Contest, so if he was ST 11 and DX 7, he gets to roll his technique at 11.

Although Jafar might sometimes enjoy a high Grappling Weight Modifier (TG8) in respect to Iago, it does not apply in this situation since Iago has the "Weight Advantage" (TG9) since he is clearly "on top" of Jafar (sitting on his shoulder).

Jafar does however enjoy the "Bigger and Stronger" benefit to both his DX and his Trained ST due to his higher Size Modifier. Either of these facilitate the successful completion of the Change Posture technique.

Iago can easily escape this of course - all he has to do is let go - no grapple no FPC technique. But why would he? He's an obedient minion - he wants to help his master stand up.

For that reason you could view him as taking no "active defence" against this Quick Contest. We might posit that he is obligated to roll against ST-4 per TG 20 ("doesn’t represent active struggling, but passive resistance provided
by your mass.") but that wouldn't impose much of a barrier since parrots have low ST.

DF5 allies assigns ST 3 (and SM-3) to the Macaw, for example, so Iago's passive resistance would have an effective ST of negative 1. Even if he rolls a natural 3 on the 3d (an automatical critical success if it were a normal success roll, but NOT here) he is still stuck with a Margin of Failure of 2 points.

This means to succeed in the Quick Contest, Jafar either has to succeed, or Fail with a margin of just 1 point. I'm giving him ST of 11 and difference of three size levels gives him +45% to his trained ST, boosting it to 15 points.

Although he can still technically fail this way (roll a 17 or 18 which gives a MoF of 2 or 3 points) it's pretty unlikely. It's a dilemma which wouldn't exist if the ST disparity between the two was 2v12 instead of 3v11, for example.

Also keep in mind here this is just if trying to do it in a single turn via AOA:double. If Jafar chooses AOA:strong he gets +2 to ST in the Quick Contest, guaranteeing success, but necessitating two consecutive turns (assuming he lacks the Extra Attack advantage)

I'm assuming here you can't use "Telegraphic Attack" for a bonus in CPA because there's no actual defense roll against it to give a bonus to.

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This of course begs the question - if you can Quick-Contest your shoulder parrot with ST 4 to help stand up faster (even though he is on top of you) should you be able to Quick Contest the ST 0 nothingness always grappling you (the atmosphere) to stand when your parrot isn't around?

I mentioned earlier how if Iago did not have Weight Advantage over Jafar, that Jafar would be able to bring to bear his Grappling Weight Modifier bonus in this quick contest. Dividing the Grappling Encumbrance instated by Iago (probably weighing less than 24 pounds) by the Basic Lift of 24 that ST 11 gives, our Grappling Encumbrance multiple would be a fraction less than 1, but round up to 1, giving a +8 to Jafar's Grappling WEight Modifier, so long as he has a weight advantage.

It's worth noting this doesn't require Jafar to establish a weight advantage over Iago - they merely need to be grappling on equal levels for the GWM bonus to apply to Jafar's Quick Contests.

Note that since Iago is cooperating, he could probably Force Posture Change himself to simply voluntarily cede the weight advantage. It's a -4 penalty if you're trying to establish it, so something like ceding it should probably be conversely easy like a +4 bonus. This doesn't get explored since TG assumes opponents are vying for superior positions.

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I'm trying to figure out of something prohibits this. There should probably be some kind of prohibition against using an opponent you are carrying (ie you are bearing their entire weight, they are neither pushing down against the ground or pulling down from an overhead rope, distinctly) to bring yourself higher.

I guess in theory that could give some small benefit (ie the recoil of tossing a foe downward thrusts you upward) but in that case, tossing down a heavy high-ST high-SM body should be of more help than tossing down a light low-ST low-SM body.

IE you get more upward thrust trying to slam a 100lb medicine ball straight down than throwing a 1/2-pound beachball down. The beachball has less inertia to overcome than the medicine ball.

If we had rules like this, then Jafar might get a small boost if he grappled Iago and tossed him downward (a mutual grapple would not be enough to do this).

- -

Otherwise - Iago would be needing to touch the ground, at which point Jafar could use him like a crutch for a Force Posture Change. This greats a new problem of course - just how effective a crutch should a tiny (ST3/SM-3) bird be, for the purpose of bearing the weight of an ST11/SM0 human?

It doesn't even seem like the Grappling Weight Modifier should give a bonus at all - surely it's easier to lift yourself off the ground by pulling down on your horse's tail, than by pushing down on your parrot's wing!

At some point you would have to wonder - wouldn't that be damaging to a parrot in ways it would not be to a pony?

To be used as a crutch, you aren't quite doing a "Pickup" technique (the person pushing down on you to Force Posture Change is not becoming Airborne - you are a supplemental support not his entire support) but there might arguably be stresses on the body comparable to it.

What I would posit here, is that if a creature is subject to a "Force Posture Change" involving the attacker raising his own position, we apply some % of that attacker's body-weight in a forced "pick-up" technique, rolled at ST-4 since this is a reflexive resistance and not an intentional attack or effort to pick someone up.

So say for example Jafar weighed 200 pounds - we wouldn't force Iago to roll a Pickup technique against a full 200 pounds, but maybe something like 50 to 100 pounds?

This could be something the varies based upon how much the attacker (Jafar) tries to shift his mass onto his foe. If only using a slight amount of assitance, there would be less bodily stress on your pet/familiar/mount, but give a smaller bonus in the Force Posture Change.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Plane

Instead he faces a new obligation: "If no foe is in range, you must use a Move maneuver to get as close as possible to a foe"

Houserule "If no foe is in range, you must use a Move or Change Posture maneuver to get as close as possible to a foe" and it's solved.

As for the rest, "I'm not allowed to stand up so I'll pretend to attack my parrot to stand up" doesn't fly with me. If Iago wants to try and pick Jafar up that's fine but Jafar is more likely to swat the distraction then rationally help.

[Donny Brook]

Grappling is mutual?

Edit: Wait, I found the reference on TG5.

I think it's a misinterpretation to think of that statement as an overall standard. I think it's more appropropriate to read it in context, where the rest of the sentence goes on to specify that mutual means techniques can be used by both the party grappling and the one grappled.

Also, on TG10 under Changing Posture, we see the phrase "you may change to a lower posture as part
of your movement if you are not being grappled or grappling" [Emphasis added.]

This indicates a distinction between being grappled and grappling.

Also, in the next sentence we see: "While grappling, changing posture (yours or your foe’s) requires the Force Posture Change (p. 37) technique." [Emphasis added.] "Being grappled" is distinctly left out, indicating that it this rule is about the entity 'grappling', not the one grappled. So Force Posture Change is not available to Jafar.

[David Johnston2]

I think you are just operating on an overly rigid interpretation of wording. I would count "stand up" as qualifying as movement for the purpose of that disadvantage. A need to crawl has never been part of depictions of berserking.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

As for the rest, "I'm not allowed to stand up so I'll pretend to attack my parrot to stand up" doesn't fly with me. If Iago wants to try and pick Jafar up that's fine but Jafar is more likely to swat the distraction then rationally help.

It does fly conceptually but mechanically I'm wondering what we could change about Force Posture Change to influence how the size of your grappling partner affects this.

Something like "it's hard to stand up when a high-ST foe is trying to keep me down" makes sense, yet a high-ST foe is also, if just limp, going to make a better tool for manipulating our own weight.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I think it's more appropropriate to read it in context, where the rest of the sentence goes on to specify that mutual means techniques can be used by both the party grappling and the one grappled.

Right, like Force Posture Change.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Also, on TG10 under Changing Posture, we see the phrase "you may change to a lower posture as part
of your movement if you are not being grappled or grappling" [Emphasis added.]

This indicates a distinction between being grappled and grappling.

Yes, but mechanically the only difference I can think of is the CP applied.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Also, in the next sentence we see: "While grappling, changing posture (yours or your foe’s) requires the Force Posture Change (p. 37) technique." [Emphasis added.] "Being grappled" is distinctly left out, indicating that it this rule is about the entity 'grappling', not the one grappled. So Force Posture Change is not available to Jafar.

TG37 "When grappling or grappled, use this technique to change position – yours, your foe’s, or both"

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I think you are just operating on an overly rigid interpretation of wording. I would count "stand up" as qualifying as movement for the purpose of that disadvantage.

Qualifying as 'movement' isn't the problem (berserkers can take Move maneuvers) the issue is a limited maneuver choice and the Change Posture not being among the options.

GMs could easily opt-in Change Posture in the spirit of Move, but this is an alternate option which is somewhat closer to RAW since it utilizes "Attacks" which they clearly can take.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A need to crawl has never been part of depictions of berserking.

It's not so much a need to craw as "an inability to gather the wits to do complex lengthly tasks like reloading a crossbow or standing if it takes 2 seconds".

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Plane

...

It seems you have identified two areas where rules have left corner-cases insufficiently addressed.

The rules on Berserk appear to have overlooked the situation where a berserker is not standing up. IMO it's absurd to think a berserker would not stand up to charge his opponents, irrespective of how many defined Manouevers that would involve.

The concept of mutual grappling appears to have overlooked situations where the grappled character has no reasonable ability to use the contact to affect the character grappling him. IMO it is absurd to think that a character with no control points in a grappling situation can use the grapple to make gross changes of position/orientation etc.

In both cases I would invoke the GMs privilege (B462) to over-rule irrational results.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The rules on Berserk appear to have overlooked the situation where a berserker is not standing up. IMO it's absurd to think a berserker would not stand up to charge his opponents, irrespective of how many defined Manouevers that would involve.

I could see it maybe applying to a dumb berserker like a zombie but not an intelligent berserker.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The concept of mutual grappling appears to have overlooked situations where the grappled character has no reasonable ability to use the contact to affect the character grappling him. IMO it is absurd to think that a character with no control points in a grappling situation can use the grapple to make gross changes of position/orientation etc.

Well if you have CP you can spend them to improve your margins in the contest so that would set aprt the 0CP mutual grapples.

But even if Jafar has 100 CP on Iago, there should come a point where having a pinned parrot in your palm doesn't help you stand up.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Plane

It's not so much a need to craw as "an inability to gather the wits to do complex lengthly tasks like reloading a crossbow or standing if it takes 2 seconds".

I think it's an exaggeration to describe standing as a complex, lengthy task. Reloading is not allowed for berserkers because even when your weapon is empty you have a simpler means to attack. That doesn't apply to standing. Crawling after the foe will not let you attack.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

It's not so much a need to craw as "an inability to gather the wits to do complex lengthly tasks like reloading a crossbow or standing if it takes 2 seconds".

As I mentioned in the other thread, if you have an issue with a Berserk character taking two seconds to get from prone to standing, consider allowing for an All Out Change Posture that lets you stand in a single second by giving up your defense (for completion, All Out Change Posture lets you either change posture twice or change posture once and move up to half Move - a kneeling berserker can get up and charge forward a few yards, as could one who is prone but skilled enough at acrobatics for a kip-up that lets him/her go from prone to standing in one Change Posture - and in the latter case, I'd be inclined to give a bonus to the Acrobatics roll). The idea the berserker would just belly-crawl forward at 1 yard per second (don't forget, you have to use Change Posture to go from Prone to Crawling, so if you aren't allowing for Change Posture, you're stuck at Move 1) is at best comical, and also makes a berserking foe much less of an issue - Berserk gives no special resistance to being knocked down, so a good shove (a character who suffers Knockback needs to make a DX roll to stay standing, and suffers a -1 per additional yard if knocked back more than one), trip, or Judo throw would be able to largely take one out of commission if they were unable to stand back up. Indeed, a Judo throw would basically be an optimal way to deal with a berserking foe (or ally who has run out of legitimate foes) - so long as you manage a Judo Parry (and with the option to get +3 for retreating - or +2 for a side-slip if retreating would put you too far away to follow up - that's not exactly unlikely), you can then do a Telegraphic Judo Throw - as your target cannot defend, so long as you succeed (likely with it being a Telegraphic Attack) the character is now stuck on the ground, and you can just jog away.