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Old 06-16-2019, 08:00 PM   #31
Plane
 
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Sure you could. If you and the GM agree that your Gadget was a grand piano that granted Flight.

Or rather since you assert that this is not possible somehow, perhaps you'd like to explain why you couldn't?
B117 does say "0 or more" for size modifier, so there appears to be no upper limit on size.

I can't even figure out a way to rule out something like "Gadget: The Earth"

However if it did grant Flight, odds are you won't have the Lifting ST to take the Piano along for the ride with you so an ability to make the piano weigh less would be a good compliment.
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:03 PM   #32
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Because your points were meaningless and not backed up.
Meaningless? I'm pretty sure my grammar was sound, and quite certain the words used are all fairly well known. Perhaps the deficit is at your end. I don't now what kind of back up you think would be required.


Quote:
Sure you could. If you and the GM agree that your Gadget was a grand piano that granted Flight.

Or rather since you assert that this is not possible somehow, perhaps you'd like to explain why you couldn't?
I quite clearly said the GM could let it slide, so I return to the impression that you did not pay any actual attention to the points I wrote.

In the absence of a GM ruling, putting gadget modifiers on an Advantage doesn't somehow make that advantage into a particular thing that grants extraneous in-game capabilities. You can't just say "I have a magic gem that grants Infravision but also btw it's the largest diamond in the world and worth half-a-billion dollars."

In this case, look at what Enhanced Defenses (Block) says:

"Enhanced Block: You have +1 to
your Block score with either Cloak or
Shield skill. You must specialize in
one particular Block defense. 5 points."

It doesn't say you get to have a Block manouever without having a Cloak or Shield.

Compare two builds:

1. Enhanced Defense (Block) (5) (Modifier: Can be Stolen (Contest of ST) -30%) [4]

2. Enhanced Defense (Block) (5) (Modifier: Can be Stolen (Contest of ST) -30%) [4]

Which one of those items is a shield (which would make a Block possible), and which one other is a feather (which means you would not get a Block)?

Last edited by Donny Brook; 06-16-2019 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:55 PM   #33
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post

In the absence of a GM ruling, putting gadget modifiers on an Advantage doesn't somehow make that advantage into a particular thing that grants extraneous in-game capabilities. You can't just say "I have a magic gem that grants Infravision but also btw it's the largest diamond in the world and worth half-a-billion dollars."
The Hybrid Equipment box on Supers p.74. gives a relavant example, though its not a shield.
Now the Shield box on p. 78 counts DB as the full set of Enhanced Defenses not free.

So IMO it could go either way, pay points or no DB or purchase a shield with cash and use its natural DB plus whatever powers are added.
I think most players would object to the latter since it means their characters have to pay points a mundane can get for mere money.
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Old 06-17-2019, 07:52 AM   #34
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B117 does say "0 or more" for size modifier, so there appears to be no upper limit on size.

I can't even figure out a way to rule out something like "Gadget: The Earth"

However if it did grant Flight, odds are you won't have the Lifting ST to take the Piano along for the ride with you so an ability to make the piano weigh less would be a good compliment.
This is why you need to Enchant a piano bench too.

Doing the piano bench would be a routine variant of the Flying Carpet Spell.
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Old 06-17-2019, 07:58 AM   #35
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B117 does say "0 or more" for size modifier, so there appears to be no upper limit on size.

I can't even figure out a way to rule out something like "Gadget: The Earth"

However if it did grant Flight, odds are you won't have the Lifting ST to take the Piano along for the ride with you so an ability to make the piano weigh less would be a good compliment.
Generally I limit any gadget to something you could have in your inventory. If it's carrying you or you have to visit it, I treat it as an ally that's granting you advantages (familiar).

Also, a GM can rule that anything is inappropriate for a given campaign. Planet sized gadgets don't fit many character concepts.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
12In the absence of a GM ruling...
There it is, that's the meaningless part.

I've never been entranced with the "Death of the GM" side in the "Rules vs GM" debate. You aren't going to be playing a Character in one of my games until I've ruled on it, so "absence of a GM ruling" is rather meaningless.

Quote:
...putting gadget modifiers on an Advantage doesn't somehow make that advantage into a particular thing that grants extraneous in-game capabilities.
Of course not. That would be in the description of the Gadget. And as a GM if I feel your description adds an extra Advantage, you will need to account for that in the Gadget's statistics. If I feel it adds capacities that are below the resolution of what I want you to pay for on that Character, I won't care.

And I don't think other GMs should care either, which Is why I'm in here argue that side of it.


If possessing "the largest diamond in the world and worth half-a-billion dollars" will bring your Character some extra abilities, then they must be paid for. If it's only going to bring you trouble (from thieves), then it wouldn't require additional statistics. I'm always okay with PCs taking Disads for free (however I would mention to them that it might be a bit less expensive if high profile thieves are always after it, and they would be, and thus they might want to consider taking Disads X, Y, or Z on that Gadget).

Quote:
Compare two builds:

1. Enhanced Defense (Block) (5) (Modifier: Can be Stolen (Contest of ST) -30%) [4]

2. Enhanced Defense (Block) (5) (Modifier: Can be Stolen (Contest of ST) -30%) [4]

Which one of those items is a shield (which would make a Block possible), and which one other is a feather (which means you would not get a Block)
What are the items descriptions?

And what are their SM and Breakability Limitations?
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:32 AM   #37
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
... so "absence of a GM ruling" is rather meaningless.
Different GMs may have different approaches. I am talking about what the rules provide.


Quote:
... if I feel your description adds an extra Advantage, you will need to account for that in the Gadget's statistics. If I feel it adds capacities that are below the resolution of what I want you to pay for on that Character, I won't care.

And I don't think other GMs should care either, which Is why I'm in here argue that side of it.
Hence why I said that the GM might let it slide.
The build under discussion here either enables (says you as GM) or doesn't enable (says me) a character to do something the rules say cannot be done without at least one of two specific objects, a cloak or a shield. But the build doesn't provide either object, and that's what I'm pointing out.


Quote:
What are the items descriptions?

And what are their SM and Breakability Limitations?
I gave all the applicable stats; they are unbreakable. You appear to be suggesting that without adding any more game stats one of those builds lets you do a Block while another one doesn't. As a GM you can say that for your game, but the rules don't.

Consider another example: A character whose racial template includes Blind [-50]. Just taking Acute Senses (Vision) [2] doesn't mean they can now see, and adding a gadget limitation to that doesn't in and of itself let them declare the gadget is a working set of bionic eyes.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 06-17-2019 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:29 PM   #38
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Compare two builds:

1. Enhanced Defense (Block) (5) (Modifier: Can be Stolen (Contest of ST) -30%) [4]

2. Enhanced Defense (Block) (5) (Modifier: Can be Stolen (Contest of ST) -30%) [4]

Which one of those items is a shield (which would make a Block possible), and which one other is a feather (which means you would not get a Block)?
These are intended to be the same thing right?

I think maybe to define differences between the value of gadgets that do stuff is to have people buy the baseline nature of their gadgets either using their wealth or as Signature Gear.

One thing the stands out about "can be stolen" and "unique" is replaceability... "Normally, you can replace a broken or stolen gadget" if you don't take that, for example.

That would be the balancing factor. If you decide to define your gadget as high-value (like your adamantium speedboat which happens to give you Mana Enhancer) then in addition to paying for it upfront and having a breakability-but-really-hard-to-break thing to hide behind, if someone does manage to steal it or destroy it, it would be all the more expense to replace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
The Hybrid Equipment box on Supers p.74. gives a relavant example, though its not a shield.
paragraph 4: "Another option is simply to pay cash for the base item."

My idea wasn't new :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
So IMO it could go either way, pay points or no DB or purchase a shield with cash and use its natural DB plus whatever powers are added.
I think most players would object to the latter since it means their characters have to pay points a mundane can get for mere money.
But a mundane would only get the +3 (best) shield, whereas if you buy a shield with wealth and then get "Enhanced Defenses +2" tied to the object, wouldn't you be at +5 to active defenses?

Paragraph 5 mentions using "Accessibility: requires material components" when it's trivial to replace the base item, so that would be like "I'm +1 to all active defenses so long as I have a shield, any old shield will do" I think?

Enhanced Block 1 (Requires Material Components -10%) [5] isn't a discount but it does reduced Enhanced Block 2 to [9] and probably covers the "I'm really good at blocking, but only with this particular kind of shield" guy, who would be out of luck using a block with other kinds of shields (or cloaks).

An expanded range of a shield catching the hit on a narrowly-passed defense (like with shields when the DB makes the diff) if your "Enhanced Defenses" contributes to that, might be a 0-point feature since it has benefits (free contact on enemy with your shield, which can be useful) and drawbacks (possible damage to your shield). Or maybe an enhancement or limitation?

What I don't like about the static -10 is that it doesn't seem to reflect the cost/difficulty of replacement, and seems to bypass the Gadget Limitations.

Maybe "requires material components" should be a prerequisite for Gadget Limitations and then you take those on top of it to denote the difficulty of replacing? Maybe in various levels until reaching the -25% for Unique (never) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
If I feel it adds capacities that are below the resolution of what I want you to pay for on that Character, I won't care.
That resolution's suggested as "For a single really cheap item, worth no more than
1/20 of starting wealth for the campaign TL" but I think the "pay cash for the base" approach sounds better.

"a hero with bioelectric powers who used a metal sword to extend his reach" sounds challenging to do... I can't remember if there's a way to design Innate Attacks as Followup attacks on melee weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
You appear to be suggesting that without adding any more game stats one of those builds lets you do a Block while another one doesn't. As a GM you can say that for your game, but the rules don't.
Hybrid Equipment (S74) as Refplace pointed out sounds like the best guideline here. The difference being that when it's a Gadget, it can't be easily replaced when someone wins the ST contest to steal your shield or shield-sized feather.

The feather will be cheaper to buy with Wealth/Signature Gear and be lighter to carry around, but the Shield will give an inherent defense bonus like any shield normally does, and can be strapped to the arm.

Generally when you buy gear (either wealth or signature) it has inherent stats like HP/DR though, and that's where I'm lost: if you're already paying fewer points because you bought an easily-destroyed item, should you also pay fewer points for it being an easier destroyed gadget? Worried that's double-dipping.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:15 PM   #39
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Different GMs may have different approaches. I am talking about what the rules provide.
So what do the rules say about a flying piano?

Quote:
Hence why I said that the GM might let it slide.
"Slide" has implications that I'm arguing against. It doesn't need to be "let slide", it needs to be agreed with or altered. This comes from the Player-GM negotiation.

At the end of the day it's all Rule Zero.


Quote:
The build under discussion here either enables (says you as GM) or doesn't enable (says me) a character to do something the rules say cannot be done without at least one of two specific objects, a cloak or a shield.
Or a chair. Or a hobbit. Or a car. Three things I've seen used as improvised shields.

Quote:
But the build doesn't provide either object, and that's what I'm pointing out.
So, where in the rules is it discussed how to turn a Gadget into a shield?

Quote:
I gave all the applicable stats; they are unbreakable.
So the feather is the same size as the shield and they are both SM -9?

That's a really tiny shield.

Quote:
You appear to be suggesting that without adding any more game stats one of those builds lets you do a Block while another one doesn't.
No I'm suggesting that without including the Size Limitation you're implying they are the exact same size.

The description is what makes one a shield and the other a feather.

I've now said 'description' in three posts, so by the Rule of Three this is now funny, satisfying, or effective.

Quote:
Consider another example: A character whose racial template includes Blind [-50]. Just taking Acute Senses (Vision) [2] doesn't mean they can now see, and adding a gadget limitation to that doesn't in and of itself let them declare the gadget is a working set of bionic eyes.
Of course not. You need "Not Blind [50]" as part of the Gadget.


So what do you demand be added to a Gadget to make it a Shield or a piano or a feather?
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: Question about... { Shields as Advantages }

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Of course not. You need "Not Blind [50]" as part of the Gadget.
Exactly. Just as you need something that allows a Block as part of the purported shield gadget if you're going to Block with it.
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