Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2018, 03:05 AM   #101
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: New Skills

There seem to be a lot of people saying that Talents are too expensive and the costs should be reduced so Heroes can have more Talents. I don't agree with this at all. As I've said before, to me the Talent system of ITL is the key feature of TFT and shouldn't be mucked about with much, if at all.

I like the way that you are forced to make difficult choices when you generate a character and those choices will define that character from then on. It may not be exactly possible for a beginning character to have all the features of a Conan or a Fafhrd or an Elric, but I'm fine with that. There are other rule systems that allow that level of detail and I don't like any of them.

I would ask that we don't change much for the new edition KS
Chris Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 03:21 AM   #102
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Languages – Hmm. Having anything that costs less than 1 point add complexity. I suppose we might say “For a half-point, you can learn a language well enough to read it if you are Literate, and speak it well, but with an accent. For a full point, you sound like a native.” But that leaves a loose half-point floating around. Kind of GURPSy.
Hi Steve,
Many GURPS ideas are good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
... Monster Followers – I have wondered how much those get used. They definitely have no basis in reality. Should I consider deleting them and using the space for other things, and possibly doing a whole splatbook, or section of a monster book, about it? Discuss, please.
I think that a monster book with a couple pages on the care and training of monster followers would be very cool. The talents could be written up in that book at what ever length is needed to make them work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Two Weapons – I can see cutting that cost to 2. Heck, I fought with two weapons in the SCA, modestly well, and it did not fry my brain. I think it’s too powerful, mechanically, to cut to 1.
It certainly seems over priced at 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Boating – Rick, are you suggesting it is too trivial, in the game world, to be a talent?

Remember, “memory” is also taking in continued training time.
No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I LIKE the idea of Boating and other small utility talents. They add a lot of the flavour to the game.

However, I think that you are leading yourself mentally astray with that meme of "memory also includes training time".

***

Let us say you want to be an adventurer who can fight, but also wants to do a couple of other things. For example, I want to write up a Heroic Leader who is also a Ranger. (Kinda like a simpler version of Aragorn.)

These are the talents which my Ranger Prince needs:
Sword, Shield, Bow, Missile Weapons, Tactics, Strategist, Charisma, Diplomacy, Horsemanship, Literacy, Courtly Graces, Naturalist, Tracking, Woodsman, Alertness, Climbing. This is 24 mIQ.

Might someone want to play a prince who can fight and is a bit of a ranger? Sure! After reading Lord of the Rings, I went thru a period when I thought Aragorn was a totally cool character. I've NOT given him Expert Naturalist, Fencing, Math, Swimming, Butcher, Mimic, or a few other talents which would be useful to such a character. This is the minimum talent list I really need to represent the character I would like to play.

Now arguing, that Missile Weapons REALLY does not require 30% of my total mental capacity because it represents the time to stay in practice sounds facile, but it MISSES THE POINT. I can't write up a Commander of Men, who is also a Ranger in the old TFT. In the new TFT it is even worse.

Talents just take up too much memory to create many types of fun characters which exist in real life and in fiction. They are simply impossible in new TFT. This is why most long running TFT games cheat when it comes to memory and talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I have also cut Expert Naturalist to 2 since it has to stack on top of Naturalist.
...
Excellent, a step forward.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 03:56 AM   #103
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Let us say you want to be an adventurer who can fight, but also wants to do a couple of other things. For example, I want to write up a Heroic Leader who is also a Ranger. (Kinda like a simpler version of Aragorn.)

These are the talents which my Ranger Prince needs:
Sword, Shield, Bow, Missile Weapons, Tactics, Strategist, Charisma, Diplomacy, Horsemanship, Literacy, Courtly Graces, Naturalist, Tracking, Woodsman, Alertness, Climbing. This is 24 mIQ.

Might someone want to play a prince who can fight and is a bit of a ranger? Sure! After reading Lord of the Rings, I went thru a period when I thought Aragorn was a totally cool character. I've NOT given him Expert Naturalist, Fencing, Math, Swimming, Butcher, Mimic, or a few other talents which would be useful to such a character. This is the minimum talent list I really need to represent the character I would like to play.

Now arguing, that Missile Weapons REALLY does not require 30% of my total mental capacity because it represents the time to stay in practice sounds facile, but it MISSES THE POINT. I can't write up a Commander of Men, who is also a Ranger in the old TFT. In the new TFT it is even worse.

Talents just take up too much memory to create many types of fun characters which exist in real life and in fiction. They are simply impossible in new TFT. This is why most long running TFT games cheat when it comes to memory and talents.

...

I can't write up a Commander of Men, who is also a Ranger in the old TFT. In the new TFT it is even worse.
It's important to understand that the clarification I asked for earlier and Guy's current suggestion make a distinction between talent costs and the number of talents a character can have. The Ranger Prince has 16 talents that cost 24 talent points, which is entirely possible for a TFT character under Guy's suggestion.

With attributes / 2 as the limit, characters can have between 16 and 20 talents. They still have to pay for them at the normal costs but they can keep spending XP on them even after they reach the 40-point limit, so the Ranger Prince can eventually get all of the listed talents by paying the 24 required talent points and he'll still have 4 more talent slots available.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:01 AM   #104
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
There seem to be a lot of people saying that Talents are too expensive and the costs should be reduced so Heroes can have more Talents. I don't agree with this at all. As I've said before, to me the Talent system of ITL is the key feature of TFT and shouldn't be mucked about with much, if at all.

I like the way that you are forced to make difficult choices when you generate a character and those choices will define that character from then on. It may not be exactly possible for a beginning character to have all the features of a Conan or a Fafhrd or an Elric, but I'm fine with that. There are other rule systems that allow that level of detail and I don't like any of them.

I would ask that we don't change much for the new edition KS
I haven't seen a lot of people calling for talent price reductions, just an increase in the number of talents allowed for experienced characters.

I'm all for keeping the starting talent points at IQ, purchasing additional talents with XP, and limiting the total number of talents a character can have. IQ can also limit which of those talents can be spells.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:16 AM   #105
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I don't know. 32/2 = 16, and giving 16 spells to every starting wizard seems as though it breaks one of the big tradeoffs of Wizard.

I know! We could roll two 8-sided dice . . . No, just kidding, put away that glaive-guisarme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
John brings up a really good point here. I wonder if there isn't a more elegant solution to determining how much in the way of skills and spells can be learned out there somewhere...

Maybe skills use the 32/2 = 16 paradigm, but IQ remains a rigid limit to the number of SPELLS you can learn as part of that "16" number...

(E.g., if my character has ST 12, DX 12, IQ 8, then he can learn up to 16 "points" of skills and spells, but since his IQ is only 8, then only 8 of those slots can be taken up with Spells (which means, if he's a Wizard, he gets 8 Spells; and if he's a Warrior he only gets 2 spells and has to raise his IQ by one to learn another one.)
I agree. Here's a slight modification / clarification.

The rules for starting characters are the same as classic TFT and Wizard:
  • You start with IQ talent / spell points (just like classic TFT and Wizard)

When you gain XP, you can purchase new talents and/or spells, subject to these limitations:
  • The number of your spells can never exceed your IQ (just like in wizard)
  • The total number of your talents and spells cannot exceed the higher of IQ and attributes / 2

Last edited by zot; 07-10-2018 at 04:19 AM. Reason: clarification
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:21 AM   #106
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by guymc View Post
Wow, this flowed along fast! Hard to keep up.

A few of my takes:

** Half-points - yuck.

** I really like the idea of having talent “slots” equal to your (ST+DX+IQ)/2. Starting talents are limited by starting IQ, with multi-point talents costing more. The nomenclature is getting confusing, though. How about this:
You have Talent/Spell SLOTS equal to your basic ST + DX + IQ / 2.
No matter how it is purchased, a Talent or Spell takes up 1 Talent/Spell SLOT.

At character creation you have a STARTING POOL of Talent/Spell POINTS equal to your IQ stat. You may spend these POINTS as you choose, spending:
For Wizards 1 POINT per Spell or 2x the Talent COST in POINTS per Talent
For Heroes 3 POINTS per Spell or 1x the Talent COST in POINTS per Talent

Once your STARTING POOL of Talent/Spell POINTS is all spent, you may not have any more Talents/Spells with which to start.

After character creation you may buy additional Talent/Spell POINTS at a flat 100 XP per POINT. They are spent the same as the POINTS from your initial POOL.
I like that combination of slots for X talents, IQ starting points to buy talents, and buying more talent points with XP later.

One session per talent point seems to fast to me, considering how long it takes to buy attributes. I was thinking 3 sessions or so because players can feel like their characters are still progressing. Steve's rate of 5 sessions per talent point seemed too slow to me but maybe it isn't.

Quote:
**Professional Knowledge could be purchased in packets like Talents, taking the same slots as Talents do. They have minimum IQ levels, and may be stackable requiring higher levels of knowledge to be bought atop lower ones. Some Professions may have only one level, others may have more depending on the depth of knowledge required. However many levels you buy, it all goes in a single Slot. For the most complex professional subjects, you might have a level for a lay enthusiast or student, another for a practicing professional or teacher, a third for a recognized expert or theoretician, and even a fourth for that renowned person who is at the top of their field and on the cutting edge. This, however, is approaching the “too darn much trouble” level. We might not need it at all.
Unless mundane talents (professional knowledge) have a mechanical effect, they are just flavor and they should be removed as talents and just noted on the character background.

If there end up being contest rules where they could have some kind of effect, then they would actually participate in the game mechanics and they should be kept. I'm all for that, of course!
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 05:26 AM   #107
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
It's important to understand that the clarification I asked for earlier and Guy's current suggestion make a distinction between talent costs and the number of talents a character can have. The Ranger Prince has 16 talents that cost 24 talent points, which is entirely possible for a TFT character under Guy's suggestion.

With attributes / 2 as the limit, characters can have between 16 and 20 talents. They still have to pay for them at the normal costs but they can keep spending XP on them even after they reach the 40-point limit, so the Ranger Prince can eventually get all of the listed talents by paying the 24 required talent points and he'll still have 4 more talent slots available.
Hi Zot, Guy, everyone.
Thanks Zot for the clarification! Yes, I somehow missed what Guy was saying about slots and points. (When I reread his post, it was quite clear.)

However, Steve did not seem pleased by the idea of memory equals to (ST + DX + IQ)/2 so I don't think that will fly. However, if we use Guy's idea that series of talents go into the same slot, the Ranger / Prince would save 1 extra memory because the points put into Tactics and Strategy would save a slot.

But Guy's points / slot idea still means that expensive talents become proportionally more valuable than 'small' talents like Horsemanship, Seamanship, Driving, Climbing, etc.

But using Guy's rules (but not using the mIQ = [total attr.]/2), the Ranger Prince could be created by creating a character with ST 11, DX 14, IQ 15. (Ignoring points, the character needs 16 slots, but less one for the Tactics / Strategist saving. Further the character could eventually pick up Expert Naturalist as a bonus.)

So Guy's rules actually addresses my major concern.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 05:35 AM   #108
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
But using Guy's rules (but not using the mIQ = [total attr.]/2), the Ranger Prince could be created by creating a character with ST 11, DX 14, IQ 15. (Ignoring points, the character needs 16 slots, but less one for the Tactics / Strategist saving. Further the character could eventually pick up Expert Naturalist as a bonus.)

So Guy's rules actually addresses my major concern.
I think I misunderstood Guy's section about professional knowledge. I thought he was only referring to mundane talents, so I addressed that in my response.

If stacking professional knowledge would mean that UC V takes only one talent slot, I don't think that would be good.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 07:21 AM   #109
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: New Skills

[QUOTE=Steve Jackson;2190262]I don't know. 32/2 = 16, and giving 16 spells to every starting wizard seems as though it breaks one of the big tradeoffs of Wizard.

If this is a major concern, then you could cap the total number of spells known at IQ, as I believe JLV suggested. But, truth be told, this issue never once came up in years of play. No starting wizard ever took 16 spells. They were too busy taking either "mandatory" (e.g. Literacy), supplemental/useful (e.g. Quarterstaff), or even quirky (e.g. Mimic) talents to flesh out their character.

ST+DX+IQ/2 was simply the most elegant solution I managed to come up with for the IQ bloat problem in the RAW. It just "felt" like TFT to me and my play group. Again, I realize that everyone's preference and/or play style is going to be somewhat different.

In the end though, I'm just honestly tickled that you (Steve), Guy, and a number of others are actually kicking the tires on my idea.
Jeff Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 07:23 AM   #110
pyratejohn
 
pyratejohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Columbia, Maryland
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I would ask that we don't change much for the new edition KS
I have to agree with Chris. A hallmark of this system is its quickness. Above all else, I want that to remain a feature. Being able to create an detailed NPC out of the blue, while my group argues about their next course of action, is something most systems these days lack.
__________________
Happily RPGing since 1976.
My Gaming and Reenacting Site (under construction)
pyratejohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.