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Old 09-30-2016, 06:18 PM   #141
jason taylor
 
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A Disney Princess that doesn't care one whit about "being herself".
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Old 09-30-2016, 07:30 PM   #142
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A work of art that celebrates following convention or the guidance of your elders rather than youthful dreams.
...
Wasn't that the point of original Romeo And Juliet? Youthful passions led to so much death and idiocy. Letting things be or slow diplomatic voices could have helped so darn much in that volatile city.
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Old 09-30-2016, 07:46 PM   #143
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A Disney Princess that doesn't care one whit about "being herself".
Avoiding the whole issue of whether that's a good lesson...
Disney is Disney. I'd say that some non-Disney fictions did great with bending Princess tropes. Shrek's Fiona springs to mind. Beauty and the Beast that doesn't castrate the moral in the final act.

It would be a rather hard sell to modern audiences to make subjugation of one's self interest and freedom for the greater good the moral.
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Old 09-30-2016, 08:45 PM   #144
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Avoiding the whole issue of whether that's a good lesson...
Disney is Disney. I'd say that some non-Disney fictions did great with bending Princess tropes. Shrek's Fiona springs to mind. Beauty and the Beast that doesn't castrate the moral in the final act.

It would be a rather hard sell to modern audiences to make subjugation of one's self interest and freedom for the greater good the moral.
Perhaps the fact that it is a hard sell means it should be thought about more. Clearly someone has to do that to have a society and sometimes we all have to. Be that as it may, "be yourself" is an annoyingly simplistic motto.

Aside from that, it would be hard to make a movie if the camera crew is lounging about because that is being themselves.

To be fair, Mulan was protecting her father not being herself.
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Old 09-30-2016, 09:19 PM   #145
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

I agree. Too often it's used as an excuse to be a jerk and attacking those complaining about said jerkish behavior.
Why be yourself, when you can try to be just a little better?
But that leads into the Young Adult fiction trope of destiny.
Who need work ethic, time, or skill when fate will just make everything happen for you?
At least older fiction gave us a short training montage even if that would of course be woefully inadequate. Now we just get some confidence epiphany and sudden explosion of ability not once hinted at.
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Old 09-30-2016, 10:57 PM   #146
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A work of art that celebrates following convention or the guidance of your elders rather than youthful dreams.

A work of art the celebrates unity of background or purpose rather than diversity.
Isn't that the stereotype of East Asian art?

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Old 10-01-2016, 07:32 AM   #147
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A work of art that celebrates following convention or the guidance of your elders rather than youthful dreams.

A work of art the celebrates unity of background or purpose rather than diversity.
I did something like this when my Zone London characters visited Zone Washington, and tried to find out what was going on by pulling local TV feeds. One character

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spots that nobody ever seems to mention not having a job, or having to look for work. He looks for signs of institutional racism and doesn't find any, but there does seem to be a slight bias pushing women into subordinate roles - not a huge thing, but it's certainly more of a distinction than he's used to in Britain. The two major forces that have square jaws and kick down the doors of evildoers (often "black marketeers" or "black zoners") are the FBI and the WASPs; the latter have bigger guns, and often robot partners. (And when the maverick cop is taken off the case and goes it alone, he usually gets killed and his buddies solve the problem through conventional police methods.)
I pinched that last bit, I think from a Mick Farren book, but I don't now remember which one.
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:28 AM   #148
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Isn't that the stereotype of East Asian art?
And Norman Rockwell.
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:36 AM   #149
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I agree. Too often it's used as an excuse to be a jerk and attacking those complaining about said jerkish behavior.
Why be yourself, when you can try to be just a little better?
But that leads into the Young Adult fiction trope of destiny.
Who need work ethic, time, or skill when fate will just make everything happen for you?
At least older fiction gave us a short training montage even if that would of course be woefully inadequate. Now we just get some confidence epiphany and sudden explosion of ability not once hinted at.
That was one thing I liked about Mulan. She wasn't a jerk and she wasn't intending to shirk her duty. She was grousing about it, but even in traditional societies people grouse more then one might think about the role given them. It was just an accident that she was more skilled as a soldier then as a potential courtly wife.

Of course the Disney version was not very much like Medieval China. But then King Arthur probably did not wear plate armor either. And the Trojan War probably did not start because three goddesses got into a beauty contest and Aphrodite won.
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Old 10-01-2016, 09:11 AM   #150
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Who need work ethic, time, or skill when fate will just make everything happen for you?
At least older fiction gave us a short training montage even if that would of course be woefully inadequate. Now we just get some confidence epiphany and sudden explosion of ability not once hinted at.
"You too can be extraordinary, but it will require a dramatic investment of time and effort, and probably the support of your parents to pay for the expensive training you will require."

How the heck does one tell an appealing story with that as its theme? Emphasize the personal effort, I suppose, and of course the reward at the end. Acknowledge but don't dwell on the family support and the sacrifices on the way there.
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