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Old 07-09-2018, 12:14 PM   #61
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: New Skills

Something I toyed with and which might be worth exploring is preset bundles or "suites" of Talents. For example:

A typical knight would be expected to have the following Talents: Sword or Axe/Mace (2), Pole Weapons (2), Horsemanship (1), Shield (1), Literacy (1), Courtly Graces (1). These Talents would normally cost 8 points and require a minimum IQ 11.

Taken as a "suite". We might allow both the cost and min IQ requirements to be reduced. So we might say that particular suite of Talents costs 7 and has a min IQ 10. So the character can buy a bundle of Talents more easily but is much more constrained in what they can get.

Just an idea that I toyed with but never fully developed.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:27 PM   #62
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
Does that mean an IQ 11 character can have 11 talents, using the new XP talent cost system?

Or does it mean to use the original talent point system?
What I MEANT was your option #2. I had not even thought about #1. Now I am thinking about it. Discuss?
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:08 PM   #63
JLV
 
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Two questions, two answers:

1) I don't think talents are necessarily overpriced per se; what I DO think is that some of them are excessively high in terms of IQ required to be able to take them at all.

2) I much prefer the new Talent XP cost system; but I can also see why you might be considering limiting the number of talents to the IQ level of the character. On the other hand, that drives us right back into those "forgetting spells and talents" rules, and I really never liked that system at all.

Perhaps something could be done along the same lines by saying that the new talent XP cost system remains in effect, but that a character is limited to two times his current IQ regarding the number of talents he can take. Thus, an IQ 12 person could have a total of 24 talents and/or spells -- which should both restrict the character from becoming a demi-God, and also push back the need to "forget" things for at least a while.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:09 PM   #64
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Skills

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
What I MEANT was your option #2. I had not even thought about #1. Now I am thinking about it. Discuss?
I like it. It's kind of a middle road that allows for more growth but not unlimited growth.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:21 PM   #65
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Like more than a few of you, my friends and I have been playing TFT since it first came out, lo these many moons ago. Over the years we butted up against most (if not all) of the concerns/issues that have been so thoughtfully discussed here on the forums and elsewhere. IQ bloat with talent acquisition was obviously one such conundrum.

Our "fix" for this perceived dilemma was to simply allow a character to have points of talents/spells/languages equal to half his character points round down. So a starting 32 point character would be able to take 16 points, a 36 point character would have 18 points and so on.

IQ minimums still applied (e.g. 10 for Fencing), but IQ itself was decoupled from being necessary to "remember" new talents, etc. So, for example, if a character raised his ST attribute 2 points, he could then take swimming without needing to boost IQ.

Of course YMMV, but we found this to be a simple "solution" that has served us well for decades. And with the proposed attribute cap, a character would still need to make meaningful choices when choosing initial and subsequent talents/spells/languages.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:43 PM   #66
JLV
 
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Default Re: New Skills

I like Jeff Lord's idea too.

What I really don't want to lose is the "Talents for XP" idea -- it really is an excellent system (after a couple of decades of experience playing with a very similar system) and significantly changes how players approach character development, tying it in more to the flow of the campaign itself, as opposed to merely playing the math inherent in attribute plussing.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:01 PM   #67
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: New Skills

Languages – Hmm. Having anything that costs less than 1 point add complexity. I suppose we might say “For a half-point, you can learn a language well enough to read it if you are Literate, and speak it well, but with an accent. For a full point, you sound like a native.” But that leaves a loose half-point floating around. Kind of GURPSy.

Mimic – yes, I agree that should be cut down in cost. Done.

Monster Followers – I have wondered how much those get used. They definitely have no basis in reality. Should I consider deleting them and using the space for other things, and possibly doing a whole splatbook, or section of a monster book, about it? Discuss, please.

Two Weapons – I can see cutting that cost to 2. Heck, I fought with two weapons in the SCA, modestly well, and it did not fry my brain. I think it’s too powerful, mechanically, to cut to 1.

Boating – Rick, are you suggesting it is too trivial, in the game world, to be a talent?

Remember, “memory” is also taking in continued training time.

Reduce IQ prereqs for UC talents – Maybe. They require dedicated training but not genius. Discussion?

I have also cut Expert Naturalist to 2 since it has to stack on top of Naturalist.

First Aid – Does the first aid that you know take up 10% of your memory? I think that from the game standpoint I’d rather push them to spend the points on Physicker. And first aid as I learned it in the Scouts does not heal wounds, even a little – it just stabilizes the victim while the EMTs are on the way. TFT deliberately has no “bleeding out” rules, so “real” first aid is not needed anyhow.

Jeff Lord – Interesting idea.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:13 PM   #68
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: New Skills

Hmmm, it's hard to keep track of what is actually going on with this Talents thing, but I certainly hope we're not moving away from how this game works.

Each attribute limits/contributes about two things, as we all know.

ST is how much damage you can take and deliver, DX is when you act and how successfully, and IQ is what level and how many talents you can have based on their costs.

Dinking around with some of the costs or prereqs. based on 40 years of this game being played is perhaps justified, but I certainly hope the way all three attributes balance each other out isn't changed by changing how talents are counted up or allocated.

Just as an aside, from my own personal experience in relation to UC skills, I don't necessarily think it is currently broken by requiring higher IQ levels for the higher level skills. In all of my competing, training, and teaching I have generally seen that more moderate levels of intelligence limit the ability to reach high levels of understanding and consequently skills in martial arts. My best students and most highly skilled have almost without a doubt been in the gifted to superior levels of IQ.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:16 PM   #69
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Talents all cost 1 memory. Discuss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
After reading the other posts, it seems to me that making IQ limit the flat number of talents (IQ 11 allows 11 talents) would ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
What I MEANT was your option #2. I had not even thought about #1. Now I am thinking about it. Discuss?
Hi Steve, everyone.
What is being suggested is that all talents cost one memory (mIQ), like spells.
Some thoughts:

-- This makes heroes more balanced vs. wizards which I like.
-- Spells are balanced by minimum IQ, and fatigue ST cost.
-- Talents are currently balanced by minimum IQ and mIQ cost.

So this throws the balance of talents out of whack.

The new TFT is does not like multi class characters (like Thief AND Pirate) or (Merchant AND Adventurer), which is not fun. Let us say that there are 15 or so 'classes' you can take with talents. (e.g. Mechanicians, Healers, Thieves, Rangers, Animal Guy, Fighter / Tank, etc.) If the cost of talents are so high that all you can take is 2 or 3 fighting talents and one of these classes, that means that there are 15 characters (with minor variants) which you can aspire to in TFT.

However, if the price of talents drops to where you can take talents to make you two of these classes, then there are 15 x 14 = 210 possible characters that people could invent. There is a huge increase in the design space for heroes to grow into. In other words, there are far more ways to customize your character and make her different from Joe's character over there. This is clearly good.

Destroying the balance between talents is bad, I think. Some talents get a HUGE boost (Missile Weapons) while a lot of currently underpowered talents (Boating) are not helped at all.

However, the increased customization is worth it. Currently most TFT campaigns allow you to cheat on memory for talents one way or another. This is strong evidence that something needs to be fixed.

In other words, I think it is worth it to break the balance between talents, in order to allow people to gain more talents.

However, I think a BETTER solution would be to allow 1/2 mIQ talents, and halve the cost of most talents (Missile Weapons can still cost 3, so there can be some exceptions). That allows you to make characters who are Thieves AND Pirates and still keep balance between talents.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-11-2018 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:21 PM   #70
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
Hmmm, it's hard to keep track of what is actually going on with this Talents thing, but I certainly hope we're not moving away from how this game works.

Each attribute limits/contributes about two things, as we all know.

ST is how much damage you can take and deliver, DX is when you act and how successfully, and IQ is what level and how many talents you can have based on their costs.

Dinking around with some of the costs or prereqs. based on 40 years of this game being played is perhaps justified, but I certainly hope the way all three attributes balance each other out isn't changed by changing how talents are counted up or allocated.

Just as an aside, from my own personal experience in relation to UC skills, I don't necessarily think it is currently broken by requiring higher IQ levels for the higher level skills. In all of my competing, training, and teaching I have generally seen that more moderate levels of intelligence limit the ability to reach high levels of understanding and consequently skills in martial arts. My best students and most highly skilled have almost without a doubt been in the gifted to superior levels of IQ.
Well said. I think that's pretty much in line with my own views. As regards UC, I've already made the point that I'm happy with high level skill being related to higher IQ. I know not all agree, but I'm happy with things as they stand.
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