The foof gun, combat value, using teleport, etc.

[skyhawk]

Ok, so I've read the forums, and even see that this is an item disliked even by the moderators (waves hello to munchkin man :)

I've been playing munchkin legends (blended with all the christmas packs, monster enhancers, dragons packs, grimm's, and some promos -with princesses and rumplestilskin removed as too few in such a sized deck) with these friends weekly for months. And while I've played star munchkin before they have not.

As a change I pulled out my star munchkin cards, and we tried that.

This card stopped the game cold for over 2 hours. Note at the table we had programmer logisticians, english majors, etc.

The problem came between context, the "new" editions (how level is now different than "combat vaue") and what does it mean to "use" an item in combat, vs. an item being equipped, plus the nifty paragraph in the combat section of the rules regarding winning not requiring the killing of monsters (wizard, for example).

interpretation a.) stated that the card was written poorly, that this is an if-then clause and so the battle must be previously "won" before the teleport may work, and that that is the only way to gain the +6, due to applying the parenthetical to the application of the +6 as well as the card's special use of teleportation.

the logic arguement against "interpretation a" is that if you've already "won" the battle, then you already have the treasure, so why would you ever use this card to not gain the levels?

interpretation b.) is that, due to how the rules are written, one does not "use" an equipped item in combat, rather that the combat bonuses are "static". The rules treat this as a passive equation of static values ("Compare...") which may be further adjusted by "using" an ability (race/class/naughty/etc), or "using" an item, which may be an equipped item or a single use item. And further that the second paragraph under combat makes this clear by stating that some cards may allow for a "win" without defeating the monsters.

So in this case, if the item is equipped, the +6 is always added to the combat value, and that the special use (which the munchkin can choose whether to use) can be used to "win" even if the combat value does not exceed the combat value of the monsters just like other such cards, or the wizard's ability.

The concern about this is that this is not called a "single-use-item", so the card is not discarded when used, and so, if the munchkiin didn't care about level, this is an automatic "get the treasure every time-sell your way to 9th level" item

I personally think that this, like kneepads of allure and other such cards, needed a clarification re-write, especially in light of the rule changes.

I think both interpretations either force the card to either break the rules as intended, or break the rules as written, or both. and these are some fairly fundamental rules (how combat value works, what's a "win", what does it mean to "use" an item) that a clarification would seem to be in order.

Now my friends desperately would like an authority figure to pick a winner to the arguement, but I don't think even that helps in light of the problem of the card, since it's still anybody's interpretation.

I'm not going to ask about the "winning" part of this, as I believe (and please correct me if I am incorrect), but the paragraph under combat concerning “winning” is present to definitively clarify all such cards, and so would appear to make this part of this moot as an RTFM issue. : )

So besides that, here area couple of ways the card could be re-done/interpreted:

a.) treat the item as an equippable item in which the +6 and the teleport only come into play if the player so chooses, but if the +6 is used AND if the monsters are defeated using that +6, then the teleport effect "must" be applied as well. And the card remains equipped.

b.) treat the item as a one shot item which adds +6 to the munchkin side, and which does the teleport, but only if the munchkin wishes.

c.) treat the item as an equippable item, with the static +6, and the card may be used (not discarded) if the player wishes to enact the special effect (teleport). And the card remains equipped.

d.) (b and c) treat the item as an equippable item, with the static +6, and the card may be used (and therefore discarded) if the player wishes to enact the special effect (teleport).

After going through all of this, as you may guess, at this point I prefer interpretation d. it would seem to align best with the current rules, and other equipped cards which have special abilities.

I also think that, regardless of which option is used, the gold piece value may need to also be re-assesed. At this point, considering it's power and potential usage, I'm leaning towards "no value", but YMMV.

I would greatly welcome your thoughts on all of this : )

[Andrew Hackard]

If you can kill the monsters without using the Foof Gun (meaning you defeat them by more than 6 points), you aren't required to use it. If the combat is closer (meaning the Foof Gun made the difference), then you are required to use it and gain no levels from the fight.

If it helps, think of the Foof Gun as a +6 bonus that starts switched off, but that you can switch on if it turns out that you need it.

[skyhawk]

Thank you for your response.

In order to reduce confusion (your response leaves a few things potentially unsettled), would it be fair to call this a (non-single) use item which only applies to the munchkin side of combat, and only when equipped (not merely carried)?

In other words, an item which is used just like a single use item, but which isn't only one use (not discarded after combat), but when used, deprives the player of rewarded levels -per teleport description on the card?

Wĥich would explain why it isn't automatically summed when comparing combat value, yet operates at munchkin discretion.

I ask this partially because I know of no other item which, when equipped, allows you to subjectively decide whether to add the combat bonus of the card to the combat.

Or are you saying that this is a +0, but can be +6 IF AND ONLY IF the player chooses to, AND this brings the munchkin combat total higher than the monster total, AND if so applied, forces the teleport ability activated?

In addition, does this mean the teleport effect is ONLY usable if the munchkin side has a higher combat value then the monster side? (This would mean that paragraph 2 under combat would NOT apply, which is surprising, since both the card and those rules use the word "win".)

[Andrew Hackard]

It's a regular 1 Hand item with a special ability: you can choose not to count its bonus if you prefer not to, or choose to count its bonus if you prefer, and you may change this decision at any point until you win or lose the fight.

(What you can't do is decide at the last minute that you aren't using the FG without giving the other players time to react; that's one consequence of the "reasonable time" rule. You can change your mind, but that gives everyone else a chance to keep screwing with you.)

If you count the bonus and kill the monsters, you don't get levels from the fight. If you don't count the bonus and kill the monsters, take your levels as normal. If you don't kill the monsters, none of this matters. :-)

I confess that your elaborate case-by-case analysis has me slightly perplexed. Does what I wrote above make sense, or are you still confused on something?

[Pauliboy1031]

Hopefully you will respond in 2023.
We recently got into munckin and we got really into it, however this gun made us spent also like 30 minutes with one dilema.

The person with the foof gun was level 1, and then, he decided to "not use it" then asked for help. Another player agreed to help him, because they will share the loot, however, I told them that is not possible because in order to ask for help, you must not be able to defeat the monster ON YOUR WON, and he was certainly capable to do so.

They were saying that he can ask for help because he decided not to use the card (as stated in the card itself) but I think that is not how it works.

Any comment on that?

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

It's a regular 1 Hand item with a special ability: you can choose not to count its bonus if you prefer not to, or choose to count its bonus if you prefer, and you may change this decision at any point until you win or lose the fight.

(What you can't do is decide at the last minute that you aren't using the FG without giving the other players time to react; that's one consequence of the "reasonable time" rule. You can change your mind, but that gives everyone else a chance to keep screwing with you.)

If you count the bonus and kill the monsters, you don't get levels from the fight. If you don't count the bonus and kill the monsters, take your levels as normal. If you don't kill the monsters, none of this matters. :-)

I confess that your elaborate case-by-case analysis has me slightly perplexed. Does what I wrote above make sense, or are you still confused on something?

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by Pauliboy1031

Hopefully you will respond in 2023.
We recently got into munckin and we got really into it, however this gun made us spent also like 30 minutes with one dilema.

The person with the foof gun was level 1, and then, he decided to "not use it" then asked for help. Another player agreed to help him, because they will share the loot, however, I told them that is not possible because in order to ask for help, you must not be able to defeat the monster ON YOUR WON, and he was certainly capable to do so.

They were saying that he can ask for help because he decided not to use the card (as stated in the card itself) but I think that is not how it works.

Any comment on that?

If he chose not to use it, then it's power doesn't add to the players combat power. If he is losing after he chooses not to use it, then yes he can ask for help.