A Chunk of Flesh - a GURPS RPG Diary

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's what I'm saying. Unlike Germany it's totally legal in the US to display the swastika. The Confederate Flag used to fly from government buildings in the South until fairly recently (and maybe still does, I'm not sure). These things are totally legal, and for the most part socially tolerated .

I am not quite sure if I find the thing with swastika disgusting or laughable...If someone would look for what this sign stood (here in Germany) then maybe he would think differently...

I for myself don't see the Confederate Flag on the same level as the swastika or the "Reichskriegsflagge". I always thought about the Civil war that it was more a clash of tradition, way of life and industry. The question about slavery came later (imho) and wasn't the sole cause for your (ancestors) / this conflict.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

(I got in trouble once for refusing to serve somebody in a retail job because he was covered in skinhead tattoos).

Whoops and what was the result?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

I am not quite sure if I find the thing with swastika disgusting or laughable...If someone would look for what this sign stood (here in Germany) then maybe he would think differently...

I'm sure the Neo-Nazis think they know what it stood for in Germany.

I for myself don't see the Confederate Flag on the same level as the swastika or the "Reichskriegsflagge". I always thought about the Civil war that it was more a clash of tradition, way of life and industry. The question about slavery came later and wasn't the sole cause for your (ancestors) / this conflict.

That's the myth of the "Lost Cause" sure, but it's not really true. The debate about slavery was ongoing in Congress since the birth of the Republic. The formation of the Republican Party from the Whigs was entirely along abolitionist lines. The secession was triggered solely by the election of a Republican president, and entirely about fears of abolition. Nobody voted for secession because they just suddenly woke up that morning concerned about Federalism.

Whoops and what was the result?

I got chewed out. I've been chewed out before.

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm sure the Neo-Nazis think they know what it stood for in Germany.

Yeah but they are still denying that we (the Germans) killed so many people with an automatism, a perfection (not positively meant) and in such an ugly industrialized way...

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's the myth of the "Lost Cause" sure, but it's not really true. The debate about slavery was ongoing in Congress since the birth of the Republic. The formation of the Republican Party from the Whigs was entirely along abolitionist lines. The secession was triggered solely by the election of a Republican president, and entirely about fears of abolition. Nobody voted for secession because they just suddenly woke up that morning concerned about Federalism.

But was it really only about abolitionism? I believe to remember that one cause was also the suprior industry of the North and the more traditional industry of the South (Cotton, tobacco) and that the North produced more. Sure the cotton and tobacco industry rellied heavily on slave labor but most of the soldiers of the South didn't even own slaves (Am I right with this?)

And Lee didn't fight for slavery as far as I know. He fought for his mother country (Virginia)??!!...

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

Yeah but they are still denying that we (the Germans) killed so many people with an automatism, a perfection (not positively meant) and in such an ugly industrialized way...

This is an extremist view held by few people here; the few who do hold it are disproportionately vocal.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

But was it really only about abolitionism? I believe to remember that one cause was also the suprior industry of the North and the more traditional industry of the South (Cotton, tobacco) and that the North produced more. Sure the cotton and tobacco industry rellied heavily on slave labor but most of the soldiers of the South didn't even own slaves (Am I right with this?)

And Lee didn't fight for slavery as far as I know. He fought for his mother country (Virginia)??!!...

It's a matter of no small controversy to this day. The vast majority of people born outside of The South consider it about 99% about slavery and/or money, not freedom, but only (IIRC) South Carolina actually mentions slavery by name in its related documents and people like my Dad still call it, "The War of Northern Aggression." Many individuals, such as (very notably) Robert E. Lee, personally disagreed with slavery but remained loyal to their home states right or wrong, further muddying the issue.

And yes, practically nobody who would actually end up on the front lines could afford to own a slave even if they wanted to. Then, as now, the rich hoodwinked the poor into fighting for their right to run roughshod over the poor by wrapping the flag around it.

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

This is an extremist view held by few people here; the few who do hold it are disproportionately vocal.

Even some right-winged Europeans are loud about this...

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

It's a matter of no small controversy to this day. The vast majority of people born outside of The South consider it about 99% about slavery and/or money, not freedom,[...] like my Dad still call it, "The War of Northern Aggression." Many individuals, such as (very notably) Robert E. Lee, personally disagreed with slavery but remained loyal to their home states[...]

If even you US folks can't agree on that how should we Europeans? (No offense there) But it seems or looks like that the Civil War is a bit or better said is seen a bit romantic?!?

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

And yes, practically nobody who would actually end up on the front lines could afford to own a slave even if they wanted to. Then, as now, the rich hoodwinked the poor into fighting for their right to run roughshod over the poor by wrapping the flag around it.

This happened in the past and it will not change in the future. It's always the same if over the pond (from my point of view) or if I look in Europe...

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

Even some right-winged Europeans are loud about this...

Emphasis on "here" in my statement. AFAICT it's actually a more common view in Europe; many American skinhead types not only believe that it happened, but are happy about that.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

If even you US folks can't agree on that how should we Europeans? (No offense there)

None taken. I've got nothing for you here, unless it matters to you that The South is pretty soundly outvoted on this one.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

But it seems or looks like that the Civil War is a bit or better said is seen a bit romantic?!?

Depends on your goals. For the purposes of gaming in that era, I would definitely recommend a more romantic perspective on the whole thing, because the alternative is IMHO a little too grim for light entertainment unless your players enjoy black-and-white good-vs-evil morality plays free of nuance.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

This happened in the past and it will not change in the future. It's always the same if over the pond (from my point of view) or if I look in Europe...

Don't even get me started.

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

AFAICT it's actually a more common view in Europe;

You bet! It's totally correct!

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

[...] The South is pretty soundly outvoted on this one.

for sure ;-)

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Depends on your goals. For the purposes of gaming in that era, I would definitely recommend a more romantic perspective on the whole thing, because the alternative is IMHO a little too grim for light entertainment unless your players enjoy black-and-white good-vs-evil morality plays free of nuance.

Only saw it from a historical viewpoint. There romanticsm is completly wrong...you have just to look on the death toll!

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Don't even get me started.

Either me. In Germany there is a saying: "Ich könnte gar nicht so viel essen, wie ich kotzen müsste" - roughly like this "I could not eat so much as I wanted to vomit!"

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

Thanks for the post thsiggins.

(SNIP)

1. & 2.
As the mods told me the censor software did take good care of it ;-). And as said, it's not the personal view of my players or myself, it's the character.
Also it is quite interesting to see how an open-minded person plays a racist as the player of Franklin did. We here in Germany have our "fair" share of "racists & Nazis" and they are an awful lot of people...
The player of Franklin didn't even try to say anything racist emphasized or made a sign or something. He knew that the results would be fatal for a guy which came straight out of prison. The reaction should and would (of the law agencies) the same in the USA as in Germany I think. Back into prison!!!

Franklin would also in a fight here, but there are spots in Germany where a foreigner or a coloured or black haired person like me could get real problems...

As others have posted, Franklin can freely say and do things in the U.S. that might get him arrested in Germany. However, in poor neighborhoods in the south, he's probably surrounded by young black men and women who have no qualms about kicking the snot out of him, should they realize he's an Aryan Supremacist. He wouldn't need to worry about jail so much as hospitalization.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

3. I thought of that but we wanted to get more chances to play and roleplay the characters and decided that it would be so. It's about fiction and fun. ;-)
The points you mentioned are totally clear!

It was a decent choice, given your goals. It was just one of those things that would never happen.

Realistically, if the route was popular and bus frequently full, an older lady with a cooler full of burritos or cold fried chicken might be sitting right behind Joline on a short leg of the trip, selling food for $3.00 or $4.00 per serving. On a short trip, she could make a few bucks, even after the cost of the ticket, and that doesn't violate Grayhound policy, at all. :)

Originally Posted by Dogma75

That's differs from the documentations, books, film etc what I'v read and saw. It is interesting to get this point explained. Imho we here in Germany have some ppl from social classes that look down on immigrants! And even the immigrants look down on other immigrants. That's not the majority but you could and can see it, if you look more precisley. Even my grandparents (both sides) felt that after they fled to Germany after "The third Reich" lost the war and they were Germans...

That sort of social stigma exists for unpopular immigrant groups, who have trouble (or aren't willing to) try to adapt to U.S. culture. As noted up-thread, Hispanics do suffer social stigma, as do people from Muslim countries, and those from Africa. However, the stigma experienced by Germans after WWII was a very specialized case. Most Europeans and Asians receive a warm welcome, just about everywhere.

Interestingly, I told a friend at work about this campaign story. He's a second-generation American of Japanese ancestry, and when I mentioned a Korean student living in the south, he laughed out loud. Apparently, most Americans of East Asian heritage avoid the states of the Old South on general principles, and if any were to ride a bus, down there, they'd go in a group of three or four, minimum.

Mostly, their concerns are exaggerated and they wouldn't have any problems. Generally speaking, though, most consider anywhere in the U.S. better than the south, so he said they just choose to live in those places, instead.

The exceptions are Miami (the closest the U.S. comes to Humphrey Bogart's "Casablanca"), the Gulf Coast from New Orleans to the Florida panhandle (lots of Vietnamese fishermen and others from South Vietnam's coastal cities relocated, there, after the Communists took over), and Atlanta (the business of Atlanta is business, and business in Atlanta is usually pretty good).

Originally Posted by Dogma75

I thought that after I described it as a corner shop it would be clear that it is in a poverty-stricken neighborhood. My fault, sorry for that. Also I should have thought about selling the old one and buying a new shop.
After your explanations I see now that Marc really has the weakest background of the player characters! Thanks for the eye opener!!!

A fair number of cities in the U.S. (especially Atlanta, Denver and many of the cities in the Pacific Northwest, including Seattle) have begun to experience a sociological phenomenon known as "New Urbanism." Many younger people have declined to live in the suburbs, and have begun to move to core city neighborhoods. They either purchase homes in redeveloped areas (old houses demolished and replaced by modern structures), or they buy old homes so they can remodel them to modern standards. A fair number of those neighborhoods have increasingly prosperous corner stores, of all sorts.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

5.
I know that the company policy was a bit of a problem but the player played Joline so good that I didn't wanted to slow him down or regulate him.

It was a good choice, from the standpoint of interaction with the other characters. It was just a bit... strange. :)

(SNIP)

Originally Posted by Dogma75

1.& 3. I thought about your point but I wanted to make it funny and colorfull and lively. It was about giving a bit of a feeling but a not to bad feeling. I also thought that (I think it would be so) only the drivers change and the bus would travel on / continoue the journey. The player of Franklin did decide to go in and was temped to went out again...;-)

The interaction between Joline and the NPC cook came across as quite entertaining, and could very easily happen if she regularly stopped in the local diner he operated. It just wouldn't be located in the bus station, itself. :)

Originally Posted by Dogma75

2. I tried to get grip on the prices and then I just took German prices and lowered them considerably. Hmm that wasn't quite enough...;-)

I will remember the point with the restaurants. thx again!

Yeah. Food and lodging in the U.S. can be really inexpensive, and better than you'd think. A Motel 6 costs only slightly more than a double-occupancy room in a European hostel, and the quality (while not great) is significantly better, and Motel 6 is only one such chain. Places like that are why hostels are pretty rare, here.

Originally Posted by Dogma75

First of all I have to apologize for the diction. Didn't mean to offend anybody here. If anybody is offended, pm me or write it here, I will gladly change it.
Just a few words so that you undertand why I used the word.
In Germany it is considered rude to use "black" as a description for black people. They even changed some old stories and a nursery rhyme because they used the word "black". Here we say "Farbige" (colored) and that is the socially correct form. I did a voccational training the last three years and even in the subject English they used colored instead of black...
It's a typical culturel missunderstanding.

How about the spelling and grammar tshiggins?

You're English spelling and grammar were much better than my German (which is limited to, "Ein dunkel, bitte!", "Ein pils, bitte!" and "Ich spreche nur English..."). :)

Seriously, although English is clearly a second language, for you, I had no difficulty understanding what you wrote.

As for the other bit, in the United States the term "colored" isn't necessarily bad, when used to refer to black folks; you just have to use it carefully.

For instance, it's acceptable to refer to someone as a "person of color" or a "colored person," so long as it's said respectfully. I knew a very pretty woman whose father was part black and part Hispanic, and whose mother was a blue-eyed blonde. The daughter was one of the most attractive women I've ever met (in a petite, sweet, curly-haired, mocha-pixie sort of way), and she referred to herself as "colored," because of her mixed heritage.

However, should someone refer to an adult person of color as a "colored girl" or "colored boy," there will be trouble.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

He wouldn't need to worry about jail so much as hospitalization.

Being a lone NAZI anywhere in the south is a good way to get a stomping by the locals, regardless of their race.

Originally Posted by tshiggins

For instance, it's acceptable to refer to someone as a "person of color" or a "colored person," so long as it's said respectfully.

Oh that is a tricky one.
As it was explained to me by black family members, it is mostly a generational thing. My great aunt is in her 50's and self identifies as "black" but her mother is "colored".

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Interestingly, I told a friend at work about this campaign story. He's a second-generation American of Japanese ancestry, and when I mentioned a Korean student living in the south, he laughed out loud. Apparently, most Americans of East Asian heritage avoid the states of the Old South on general principles, and if any were to ride a bus, down there, they'd go in a group of three or four, minimum.

Amusing.

I'm from a small town in southern KY that had a total of ONE Chinese man in it.
We elected him mayor...after he retired as principal of the elementary school.

What few immigrants we had the town embraced, provided that they behaved according to the protestant work ethic and learned to speak passable English.