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Old 11-24-2014, 12:32 PM   #1
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default GURPS Overhaul - MinST

I've recently been working on a system for designing fantasy mecha (based primarily on their depiction in the anime Vision of Escaflowne), stealing liberally from Spaceships. When it came to the weaponry, however, I came back to the MinST scaling rules from LTC2. While these work alright for humans, they seem rather off for larger characters - an average SM+3 character would have ST 35 or so, and a 147 lb halberd would encumber him just as much as a 12 lb one would an ST 10 human (60% BL either way). That follows, but while the human needs only +30% ST (a bit more than half again the BL) to wield his halberd, the giant would need +135% ST (over 5x the BL) to wield his! It seems to me MinST should be based on the proportion of BL a weapon represents, with some adjustments for weight distribution.

At the same time, Unready weapons (those with MinST ‡, like the above halberd) have always struck me as a bit off. I explored an idea for handling these late in my Removing a Stuck Pick thread, and decided I should explore that further.

Finally, as seen in the linked thread (and many of my other threads), I'm rather fond of many of the ideas introduced into GURPS by Technical Grappling. In particular, Grip CP seems appropriate here. The following is the result of putting all three of these bits together

...

Rather than MinST, weapons now have a MinCP statistic. This is the minimum amount of CP necessary to effectively wield a weapon. Calculating MinCP is based on the weapon's effective weight. Effective weight is equal to actual weight for Reach C weapons, but longer ones are modified by length, balance, and method of use (thrust vs swing). A balanced thrusting weapon has effective weight of +5% per yard of Reach, an unbalanced thrusting weapon has effective weight of +15% per yard of Reach. Swinging doubles these values. Optionally, holding a weapon close to its center of balance (GM's call) may reduce these down to +2%/+5% and +7%/+15%, respectively. For weapons with variable Reach, simply use the longest reach (optionally, those with Reach *, like halberds, might use current Reach for MinCP, but this may prove horrendously fiddly).

Once you have effective weight, take the square root of it. Multiply by 2 for one-handed weapons, 3 for two-handed weapons, and 3.6 for hand-and-a-half weapons. Swinging is another 1.2 multiplier, for 2.4, 3.6, and 4.1, respectively. Round up to get the MinCP necessary for wielding the weapon. "Hand-and-a-half" is for weapons where the hands are placed very close together, such as with most swords as well as virtually any one-handed weapon being wielded in both hands.

Having Grip CP different from MinCP has a variety of consequences. First and foremost, your effective ST for wielding the weapon is based on Grip CP - 2xGrip CP for one-handed weapons, Grip CP for two-handed and hand-and-a-half weapons, to a maximum of the character's actual Striking ST in either case. For this purpose, Grip CP cannot exceed 5xMinCP for thrusting weapons, 3xMinCP for swinging.

If using Relative Weapon Weight (MA110), use Grip CP in place of ST, but ignore the penalty for being beneath MinST (this is handled later). Thus, a character wielding a broadsword one-handed (MinCP 5) with Grip CP 10 has double the necessary CP, good for a +2 here.

Having below MinCP results in the weapon becoming Unsteady. This imposes a skill penalty to use, at -2 if the character has at least 2/3 MinCP, -4 if at least 1/3 MinCP, and -6 if lower (higher resolution is -1 to skill per -1/6 MinCP). This penalty can be bought off by a leveled Perk, Heavy Weapons, which negates -2 per level; this is a Style Perk for many polearm styles. Additionally, each strike with an Unsteady weapon causes a loss of Grip CP equal to MinCP/4, round up. A weapon at Grip CP 0 is unusable, and if Grip CP drops to a negative value, you drop the weapon immediately after resolving the attack.

Establishing or recovering Grip CP can be accomplished as an Attack or Ready (the latter can be reduced to a free action with a successful Fast Draw). As an attack, this is typically safe to do Telegraphic Attack (for +4 to hit) and does not suffer from the skill penalty for being Unsteady. As a Ready, this must be completely unopposed (if a foe so much as attempts a legal defense, you fail), but any rolled CP are automatically doubled. Additionally, applying Grip CP to a stable weapon - one secured in a sheath to your side rather than sitting on a table, or one which you've already established Grip CP equal to MinCP - gives the option of simply using an average roll and doubles any rolled (or unrolled, if going average) CP. For a Ready action on a stable weapon - such as drawing a sheathed sword - it's typically simplest to just assume you reach maximum Grip CP outright.

...

To summarize...

Determine MinCP
1) Take weapon weight, adjusting as follows:
  • Reach C: no change
  • Reach 1+, balanced: +5%/yard thrusting, +10%/yard swinging
  • Reach 1+, unbalanced: +15%/yard thrusting, +30%/yard swinging
2) Take the square root, then multiply by one of the following
  • 1h, thrust: 2
  • 1h, swing: 2.4
  • 2h, thrust: 3
  • 2h, swing: 3.6
  • 1.5h, thrust: 3.6
  • 1.5h, swing: 4.1
3) Round up

ST for wielding the weapon is equal to Grip CP (2xGrip CP for 1h weapons), which cannot exceed 5xMinCP if thrusting, 3xMinCP if swinging

If Grip CP exceeds MinCP, use the guidelines from MA110, replacing ST with CP.

If Grip CP is below MinCP, weapon use is at a penalty, and weapon is Unsteady - each attack reduces Grip CP by MinCP/4, round up.

Establishing Grip CP can be done as an Attack or Ready - the latter must be completely unopposed or fails outright. Attack establishes CP based on a roll of thr damage. Ready doubles this, and gives to option to use an average instead of rolling. Grip CP established on a "stable" weapon is doubled (for Readies on such, just assume you reach maximum Grip CP outright). As noted in TG, maximum Grip CP is equal to 0.5xST (round up) with one hand, ST with two.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:34 PM   #2
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

Here are a few optional rules, as well as some examples.

Extra Effort (Improved Grip): This increases a character's Grip CP by their maximum thrust damage, and can exceed their normal maximum CP, but only lasts for a second. Thus, a character with ST 13 (thr 1d) swinging a halberd (MinCP 18) with Grip CP 12 could use this to temporarily increase his Grip CP to 18 - the weapon would cease to be Unsteady (no skill penalty, no loss of Grip CP upon attacking with it) and he would get full damage for his ST 13 (instead of using ST 12's damage). Similarly, an ST 20 (thr 2d-1) character swinging a broadsword (MinCP 5) with Grip CP 7 could use this to temporarily increase his Grip CP to 18, allowing him to use his full ST 20 for damage (instead of the ST 14 Grip CP 7 would have restricted him to). If using Relative Weapon Weight (MA110), he would also enjoy a +3 for Stop Hits and similar, get a +3 to make or resist a feint, and only suffer -1 per additional Parry beyond the first, thanks to having over 3xMinCP.

Whips: Whips are weapons that require a lot of wind up/recovery, particularly with the longer versions. Optionally, a character can improve Grip CP up to twice their normal maximum. As soon as the character attacks, all Grip CP in excess of their normal value is instantly lost. This can be combined with Extra Effort, above. While it is probably best to only allow this for whips, it may be an interesting solution for other weapons as well.

Lookups Are a Pain: Instead of determining damage based on current effective ST, simply apply a penalty for being below your character's normal CP for the weapon. For one-handed weapons, this is -1 damage per -CP to thrust, -2/CP to swing. For two-handed, this is -1 per -2 CP to thrust, -1/CP to swing.

Bigger and Stronger: The above system actually still makes it a little harder for an SM+3 giant to wield a scaled halberd than it does for an SM+0 human, due to the way effective weight increases with Reach. This is probably realistic, but if you prefer you can change it so that instead of being +n% per yard it is approximately +n% per half the wielder's linear dimension. So, SM+0 is a linear dimension of 2 yards, so every yard is +n%. SM+3 is a linear dimension of 7 yards, so every 3 yards (technically 3.5, but I'm sticking to SSR for ease of math) is +n%.


Example Weapons (due to the round-up nature of Grip CP, many one-handed weapons have MinST 1 lower than it "should" be, but I don't think this is a huge problem)

Dagger: Weighing in at a mere 4 ounces, the Reach C dagger has MinCP 1. Any ST is technically enough to wield it (although when you get down to ST 1, you really need some better resolution), but damage caps out at only ST 10 (Grip CP 5).

Rondel Dagger: At 1 lb and Reach C, a rondel dagger has MinCP 2. ST 3+ is needed to wield it, and damage caps out at ST 20.

Large Knife: At 1 lb, Reach 1 (swinging) or C (thrusting), and balanced, the Large Knife has MinCP 2 for thrusting, 3 for swinging. MinST is thus 3 (thr) or 5 (sw), and thrust damage caps out at ST 20, swing at ST 18.

Shortsword: At 2 lb, Reach 1, and balanced, the Shortsword has MinCP 3 (thr) or 4 (sw). This works out to MinST 5 or 7, MaxST 30 or 24.

Broadsword: At 3 lb, Reach 1, and balanced, the Broadsword has MinCP 4 or 5. MinST 7 or 9, MaxST 40 or 30.

Bastard sword, 1h: At 5 lb, Reach 2, and balanced*, the Bastard sword has MinCP 5 or 6. MinST 9 or 11, MaxST 50 or 36.

Bastard sword, 1.5h: As above, but held with both hands. This changes MinCP to 8 or 10. As two hands are involved, that means MinST 8 or 10, MaxST 40 or 30.

Greatsword, 1h: At 7 lb, Reach 2, and balanced*, the Greatsword has MinCP 6 or 7. MinST 11 or 13, MaxST 60 or 42.

Greatsword, 1.5h: As above, but held with both hands. MinCP/MinST 10 or 12, MaxST 50 or 36.

Greatsword, 2h: At the GM's option, a Greatsword or similar held in Defensive Grip has enough space between the hands (one on the ricasso) to count as properly two-handed. MinCP/MinST 9 or 11, MaxST 45 or 33.

Edged Rapier: At 3 lb, Reach 2, and balanced, the Edged Rapier has MinCP 4 or 5. MinST 7 or 9, MaxST 40 or 30.

Axe, 1h: At 4 lb, Reach 1, and unbalanced, the Axe has MinCP 6 (no thrusting option). MinST 11, MaxST 36.

Axe, 1.5h: As above, but held with both hands. MinCP/MinST 9, MaxST 27.

Dueling Halberd: At 10 lb, Reach 2, and unbalanced, the Dueling Halberd has MinCP/MinST 10 or 13, MaxST 50 or 39.

Halberd: At 12 lb, Reach 3, and unbalanced, the Halberd has MinCP/MinST 13 or 18, MaxST 65 or 54.

*These are optionally Parry U due to being so long yet used in only 1 hand, but that's a GM call - a decent rule of thumb may be that weapons at least the character's linear dimension in length are Parry U if used in one hand, even if balanced; 1.5h might become Parry U at 1.5xlinear dimension, 2h at 2xlinear dimension. The weapons themselves are balanced for purposes of this system.

Last edited by Varyon; 11-24-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

It'd be awesome to see some revised weapon tables in a Pyramid, or something that doesn't require Tactical Grappling to figure out (where you just explain everything was derived from TG and chunk out the tables or something).
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarf99 View Post
It'd be awesome to see some revised weapon tables in a Pyramid, or something that doesn't require Tactical Grappling to figure out (where you just explain everything was derived from TG and chunk out the tables or something).
That would be the goal. Borrow concepts all you want, but TG isn't required.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

Varyon, where do you keep all your overhauls? Some of them I like and some of them I like a lot, and I'd be delighted if I could have a compendium.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
That would be the goal. Borrow concepts all you want, but TG isn't required.
I basically don't know anything about Control Points other than what's posted here, and the fact that they are a TG concept.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:02 PM   #7
Varyon
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwarf99 View Post
It'd be awesome to see some revised weapon tables in a Pyramid, or something that doesn't require Tactical Grappling to figure out (where you just explain everything was derived from TG and chunk out the tables or something).
"If not using GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling, any Ready weapon starts with Grip CP equal to the maximum for the character's ST, which is 0.5xST (round up) if one-handed, ST if two-handed. If this is reduced due to a weapon being Unsteady, the character can recover with a Ready Maneuver, which regains half this amount (round up), or a successful roll against weapon skill +4, which regains a quarter (round up). So, an ST 14 character wielding a halberd (MinCP 18) would have start with CP 14. After two attacks, this would drop to 4. A Ready would be +7 CP, for CP 11. A successful roll against Polearm +4 (say, as part of a Rapid Strike) would be good for +4 CP, for CP 8."

Would that work for the latter?


As for the tables, that's just number crunching (boring) and layout (boring... and I don't actually know how to do PDF layouts like the GURPS weapons tables). If you have Excel (or OpenOffice Spreadsheet, this should work there too), the following will get you a template for plugging in your own weapons.
Code:
			1h		2h		1.5h	
	Weight	Reach	ThrCP	SwCP	ThrCP	SwCP	ThrCP	SwCP
Balanced	3	1	=2*(B3*(1+0.05*C3))^0.5	=2.4*(B3*(1+0.1*C3))^0.5	=D3*1.5	=E3*1.5	=D3*1.7	=E3*1.7
Unbalanced	=B3	=C3	=2*(B4*(1+0.15*C4))^0.5	=2.4*(B4*(1+0.3*C4))^0.5	=D4*1.5	=E4*1.5	=D4*1.7	=E4*1.7
Replace the 3 and 1 under BalancedxWeight and BalancedxReach respectively, with your numbers, and the spreadsheet will spit out the MinCP's. You'll need to round up, of course.


I'm still debating on exactly how I should handle whips. I'm actually considering allowing characters to build up to twice their personal maximum CP solely for the purpose of striking with the whip, then losing all of the extra once they attack. So, a 7 yard whip is 14 lb and MinCP 12 (it's a balanced weapon, despite the Parry U). An ST 11 character (RAW 7 yard whips are MinST 11) normally has maximum one-handed Grip CP of 6. A Ready will get him an average of 3 CP (half maximum), so two Ready maneuvers build him up to CP 12 and enough to properly use the weapon. He strikes, and drops back down to 6, then has to take another two Readies before he can strike at full skill again. For a 3 yard whip, a character with ST 7 (RAW 3 yard whips are MinST 7) has one-handed Grip CP 4. A 6 lb whip requires 7 Grip CP, so two Ready Maneuvers get him there. Overall, this matches decently well with the Basic Set trend of long whips requiring two Ready maneuvers between attacks, and it has the added (cinematic) bonus of allowing very strong characters to wield whips without this delay - an ST 23 fellow could strike with a 7-yard whip every second!
EDIT: Actually, I think I rather like this idea, and have put it "officially" in the list of optional rules. Allowing it for weapons other than whips could also be neat, serving to match the current rules for ‡ weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Varyon, where do you keep all your overhauls? Some of them I like and some of them I like a lot, and I'd be delighted if I could have a compendium.
I don't have any sort of site or blog, so all my Overhauls are here. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, you'll note that I've tagged this thread with the tag "overhaul." This is true of all my Overhauls, and I'm the only one (currently) using that tag, so just click on that and you can see all of them. Note this is only for the houserules I've explicitly labelled Overhauls - there are a lot of my weird little bits that I haven't (yet) classified as such. For those, I'm afraid you'll just have to go to my profile, click on the Statistics tab, and go to "Find all threads started by Varyon."

Last edited by Varyon; 11-24-2014 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - MinST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
"If not using GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling, any Ready weapon starts with Grip CP equal to the maximum for the character's ST, which is 0.5xST (round up) if one-handed, ST if two-handed. If this is reduced due to a weapon being Unsteady, the character can recover with a Ready Maneuver, which regains half this amount (round up), or a successful roll against weapon skill +4, which regains a quarter (round up). So, an ST 14 character wielding a halberd (MinCP 18) would have start with CP 14. After two attacks, this would drop to 4. A Ready would be +7 CP, for CP 11. A successful roll against Polearm +4 (say, as part of a Rapid Strike) would be good for +4 CP, for CP 8."

Would that work for the latter?
methinks so, maybe.

Quote:
As for the tables, that's just number crunching (boring) and layout (boring... and I don't actually know how to do PDF layouts like the GURPS weapons tables).
Me neither, but Microsoft Office seems to know how to do it. The PDFs it spits out are basically crap, but tolerable. I'd hope pyramid has a template for this, but maybe they don't.

Quote:
I'm afraid you'll just have to go to my profile, click on the Statistics tab, and go to "Find all threads started by Varyon."
It's less complicated to Advanced Search you by Username.
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