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Old 01-21-2014, 01:10 PM   #11
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
So, you would have the same mass of the same material moving at the same speed do different damage depending on whether it was the character's TK or the force of gravity moving it? How does that make sense?
The same way it always does for weapons. You don't after all use the collision rules to figure the damage of a club. Or a bullet for that matter.

And no it doesn't make sense. It's a simplification of the physics engine of the game to allow it to be played by humans without TL9 implant computers....

Edit - in fact, I think the place there is likely to be the disconnect is the speed. The fundamental parameter of telekinesis is its ST, which sets the damage you can do hitting something with it, not how fast it can move something. If you are getting higher damage out of the collision rules than its ST would dictate, the problem is your telekinesis isn't actually strong enough to move it that fast, the broken rule is presumably the one for computing the speed of the object, not the damage rules.
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Last edited by malloyd; 01-21-2014 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 01-21-2014, 02:15 PM   #12
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
So, you would have the same mass of the same material moving at the same speed do different damage depending on whether it was the character's TK or the force of gravity moving it? How does that make sense?
Take it up with the throwing rules, if you think they're inconsistent with the collision damage rules.

TK and gravity are already inconsistent, since gravity is an acceleration, but TK is described as letting you move objects with a constant Move. But then, TK isn't self-consistent because you can also throw objects with TK, and that clearly involves moving faster than the character's Move.

The OP says "create a metal ball and hurl it", which to me sounds like the throwing rules, not collision damage.

Would you have a shotput thrown by a ST 15 athlete do different damage from that thrown by TK ST 15? How does that make sense?
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:00 PM   #13
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
The fundamental parameter of telekinesis is its ST, which sets the damage you can do hitting something with it, not how fast it can move something.
Actually, TK level DOES determine how fast you can move something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic 92
You can move any object you have strength enough to lift, at a Move equal to your TK level, modified as usual for encumbrance level (see Encumbrance and Move, p. 17).
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:39 PM   #14
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
The same way it always does for weapons. You don't after all use the collision rules to figure the damage of a club. Or a bullet for that matter.

And no it doesn't make sense. It's a simplification of the physics engine of the game to allow it to be played by humans without TL9 implant computers....

Edit - in fact, I think the place there is likely to be the disconnect is the speed. The fundamental parameter of telekinesis is its ST, which sets the damage you can do hitting something with it, not how fast it can move something. If you are getting higher damage out of the collision rules than its ST would dictate, the problem is your telekinesis isn't actually strong enough to move it that fast, the broken rule is presumably the one for computing the speed of the object, not the damage rules.
You mean it's broken that Telekinesis, as written, can move objects under control faster than it could reasonably throw them? Sure, but that's the rule, and I would use the collision/Slam rules consistently for any bulky object moving at speed, without respect to why it's moving at that speed.
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:44 PM   #15
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

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Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Actually, TK level DOES determine how fast you can move something.
Exactly, and the rules tell us how much damage a large object does going at a certain speed. Basically, using TK as written, I would always choose to move objects under control and Slam them into targets, as opposed to throwing them, unless my target was outside of my TK range. Remember that without enhancements, that range is only 10 yards.

Although it's possible that the disparity is being overstated. Did we remember to reduce the TK Move according to how much Encumbrance the object being used represents to the TK's ST? If the object is near the top of the range of what your TK 21 can lift, you might only be able to move it at Move 4 (0.2 times your usual Move 21).
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:18 PM   #16
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Exactly, and the rules tell us how much damage a large object does going at a certain speed. Basically, using TK as written, I would always choose to move objects under control and Slam them into targets, as opposed to throwing them, unless my target was outside of my TK range. Remember that without enhancements, that range is only 10 yards.

Although it's possible that the disparity is being overstated. Did we remember to reduce the TK Move according to how much Encumbrance the object being used represents to the TK's ST? If the object is near the top of the range of what your TK 21 can lift, you might only be able to move it at Move 4 (0.2 times your usual Move 21).
Yes, we did. That's why the Slam damage is calculated at Move 16, not Move 21.
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Old 01-22-2014, 05:00 AM   #17
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
You mean it's broken that Telekinesis, as written, can move objects under control faster than it could reasonably throw them? Sure, but that's the rule, and I would use the collision/Slam rules consistently for any bulky object moving at speed, without respect to why it's moving at that speed.
That does seem to be where it's broken.

In this case I think you could argue it either way. Objects being moved with TK might not have momentum in the normal sense.

Consider the case where you are near your TK limit and hit something inelastically - at some point in the collision process, the thing you collided with is going to add its mass to your projectile, push you over your limit and, what? By the RAW I think the object stops dead, it doesn't continue to move at a speed determined by conservation of momentum.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:28 PM   #18
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Create, Telekinesis and Collision

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
That does seem to be where it's broken.

In this case I think you could argue it either way. Objects being moved with TK might not have momentum in the normal sense.

Consider the case where you are near your TK limit and hit something inelastically - at some point in the collision process, the thing you collided with is going to add its mass to your projectile, push you over your limit and, what? By the RAW I think the object stops dead, it doesn't continue to move at a speed determined by conservation of momentum.
I don't know that that is the case by the RAW, and it looks like it would be tricky to judge some cases, but it seems like a reasonable ruling to me. Just moving something into someone might cause no more harm than thrusting or swinging it at them with your arms.
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