The "Size Discount for ST -- Why?" Discussion

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by Edges

Remind me how you get this numbers again.

EDIT: Are you assuming No Fine Manipulators or something?

No Fine Manipulators: -40%
Size Modifier +5: -50%
TOTAL: (Minimum -80%)

therefore

Positive ST per level: 2 points

ST 50 for a huge, limbless worm: 80 points! :)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Lifting strength is a good idea for soldiers and perfectly realistic as long as it doesn't vary too much from base strength.

I'd likely restrict it to 1-2 points over and above

Originally Posted by Boomerang

Is the minimum strength for weapons based on lifting strength?

Guns, bows and crossbows, other weapons is striking ST. (I'm also a fan of the perk that boosts your ST for that purpose as a way of modelling specific training)

That said I'm not quite sure of the MinST rules as some of the heavier weapons are but un-historically heavy (un-historic in general). But if that's not exactly what the MinST rule is based off I doesn't matter so much. In general I don't mind a 12' pole arm being harder to control than 2lb sword, but I think the ‡ rule is probably the better way to show it. However as I said I make liberal use of the big hands perk* to model specific training in these weapons (and to make the point that full length pole arms are very much serious battlefield weapons not everyday side arms).

As you can see there's a bit of a recurring theme of specific training for specific needs, justifying specific results

* I add it to most MA style write ups involving such weapons.

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

...
Guns, bows and crossbows, other weapons is striking ST. (I'm also a fan of the perk that boost your St for that purpose as way of modelling specific training)
...

That sounds... really unintuitive. Bows and most muscle-powered weapons, yes--but crossbows would almost certainly require "slow, steady pressure" to load.

Furthermore, I think guns should be affected by Lifting ST, since you're keeping them in your hand, not swinging them about.*


*Bayonet damage would be an exception, of course

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Tallor

That sounds... really unintuitive. Bows and most muscle-powered weapons, yes--but crossbows would almost certainly require "slow, steady pressure" to load.

Furthermore, I think guns should be affected by Lifting ST, since you're keeping them in your hand, not swinging them about.*


*Bayonet damage would be an exception, of course

Yep that's why guns, bows and crossbows are lifting ST, Melee weapons* are striking ST.

Sorry I may not have been very clear but the first half of that sentences was answering Boomerang's question with a list of weapons that were Lifting ST


*I'd argue thrown weapons are striking ST as well

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

...
I'd argue thrown weapons are striking ST as well.

I'd second that. Thrown weapons could easily accept the rapid energy bursts of Striking ST. Though that makes the doomchildren from DF 2 able to do 1d+2 impaling at ridiculous ranges...

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Tallor

I'd second that. Thrown weapons could easily accept the rapid energy bursts of Striking ST. Though that makes the doomchildren from DF 2 able to do 1d+2 impaling at ridiculous ranges...

I'll be honest DF is not really my thing (and I'm not familiar with doom children stats, do they have lots of Striking ST?) But what I do suspect what would be murderous in some campaign settings would be closer to a nuisance value in DF.

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I'll be honest DF is not really my thing (and I'm not familiar with doom children stats, do they have lots of Striking ST?) But what I do suspect what would be murderous in some campaign settings would be closer to a nuisance value in DF.

1. Yes, ST 8 but Striking ST+10

2. You'd think, but honestly I think the monsters in DF were built on the assumption that the adventurers had a load of Ablative DR, in similar fashion to how those other games have their heroes absorb damage---but they don't! DF PCs may be high-powered, but your team knight is probably going to be wearing mail when the doomchildren attack, and that's not going to be fair. :P

I'd amend that if you want a truly 10/10 cinematic-but-not-too-crazy Dungeon Fantasy adventure, just boost the character points, but require that they take a ton of Ablative DR. That way the rogue can backstab a doomchild without losing their eyebrows, hair, and general facial region.

I think I should just keep these long comments to their own threads... XD

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Tallor

1. Yes, ST 8 but Striking ST+10

er yikes!

Originally Posted by Tallor

2. You'd think, but honestly I think the monsters in DF were built on the assumption that the adventurers had a load of Ablative DR, in similar fashion to how those other games have their heroes absorb damage---but they don't! DF PCs may be high-powered, but your team knight is probably going to be wearing mail when the doomchildren attack, and that's not going to be fair. :P

Fair enough as I said it's not really my area but I thought high DRs and high defences were a thing (and DR5-7 will be enough to take the brunt of the damage here)

Originally Posted by Tallor

I'd amend that if you want a truly 10/10 cinematic-but-not-too-crazy Dungeon Fantasy adventure, just boost the character points, but require that they take a ton of Ablative DR. That way the rogue can backstab a doomchild without losing their eyebrows, hair, and general facial region.

I think I should just keep these long comments to their own threads... XD

No worries mate, threads drift, it's all good!

[Varyon]

I actually did an analysis of it a while back, the results of which can be found here. The values from the Mass and Volume system are outdated (you can find the updated version of that system here if you're curious).

Basically, all of the effects of SM actually do work out to be features, with a few exceptions. The first is the weight (and cost) of armor and gear. To determine the weight and cost of said armor and gear, take your SM's linear measurement (2 for +0, 3 for +1, 15 for +5, 0.5 for -4, etc), divide by 2, and square it. The price of this doesn't scale cleanly in the form of [+n]/+SM, unfortunately. Instead, use the linear measurement/2 from above, multiply this by 10, subtract 10 from the total, and multiply the whole thing by -5. Have a table:

SM	Mult	Cost
-6	0.01	[45]
-5	0.0225	[42.5]
-4	0.04	[40]
-3	0.09	[35]
-2	0.25	[25]
-1	0.49	[15]
0	1	[0]
1	2.25	[-25]
2	4	[-50]
3	9	[-100]
4	25	[-200]
5	49	[-300]
6	100	[-450]

The way I came up with these values is complicated, but ultimately comes down to something like a modified Payload (or the reverse of that value, for high SM characters) and assuming the character is ST 10 and that a normal loadout would weigh 2xBL (just below Medium Encumbrance).
Note this becomes a huge value for very large creatures, as their gear gets incredibly heavy and expensive - summer clothing weighs 100 lb (200 lb at low TL) for an SM+6 giant, and costs $60,000 for Status 0 (CoL is going to change by the same amount as gear). He needs Lifting ST 100 [270] and be Filthy Rich [50] to get on the same level as other characters, and then will probably need to invest in some Striking ST if he wants to be able to use actual weapons. Note I made this before I noticed the oddity of high levels of Payload vs ST (that is, you can reach a point where it costs less to increase ST to boost your existing levels of Payload instead of buying more Payload), so the numbers need some adjustment to account for this.

The next is consumption. A larger character should need to eat more, a smaller character should need to eat less. You can approximate this using Increased/Reduced Consumption, but honestly it's safest to assume that it's included in the gear adjustment, above. Consumption scales the same as gear - an SM -6 character needs to eat 1/100th as much as a human.

The last one is Wounding Modifier (note this is not a RAW effect). Realistically, larger creatures should be less susceptible to injury, smaller creatures more susceptible. Divide your SM's linear value by 2 - this is the divisor attacks suffer. This doesn't apply to explosions and the like (a large creature and small creature suffer equally from such). Buy an appropriate level of Vulnerability or IT:DR - this works out to [-25]/-1 SM, [25]/+1 SM.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

There's another problem (which has been mentioned earlier) different things are just worth different amounts according to setting/TL

And there's really no getting around that unless you're going to introduce TL specific pricing structures. And that will be a can of worms.

Sadly I think judicious use of Unusual Background as both a advantage and disadvantage is the easier way to go.

(although I see Douglas Cole has done some stuff on DR cost by TL)

Agreed. GURPS 4th specifically avoids pricing things differently by setting/TL (with a few exceptions such as high quality swords).

But Unusual Background can cover things like Ignite Fire being a cute trick at TL8 but a world-changer at early TL0 when humans knew how to use fire but not how to start it (the entire film Quest for Fire revolves around this).