Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

You can change this with IT:DR/2 (Cosmic Rounds down to 0, +50%) [75]

As an aside, Cosmic Round Down isn't worth it unless you have at least IT:DR/10 (and even then it can be questionable). With IT:DR/2, for the same [+25], you can purchase 2 levels of DR that ignores armor divisors (+100% for 5 levels of Hardened, +50% for Cosmic), which is actually more effective. With IT:DR/3, the same [+38] for Cosmic Round Down will buy you 3 levels of the above DR, with IT:DR/4 you can buy 4 levels, with IT:DR/10 you can buy 6 levels, with IT:DR/15 you can buy 7 levels, with IT:DR/20 you can buy 8 levels, and so forth.

Personally, I think the primary advantage of Massless HP over IT:DR (aside from cost in certain cases) is granularity. IT:DR only works in SSR steps (outside of IT:DR/4), so if you want a character that's only 20% more resilient than his mass implies, IT:DR isn't an option (it technically isn't an option for +50%, but I see no issues with IT:DR/1.5 for [25]).

[AlexanderHowl]

Other than the math, but that is why people have calculators on their phones. We are still stuck though, as there is no reason to take massless HP, especially if you are Unliving or Homogeneous, unless you are really worried about falling.

A ST 10 character could justify HP 40 if they purchase Homogeneous (though it will cost them 100 CP). They will still mass ~150 lbs, but they can slam for more damage than they can punch or kick (though they take damage). If they have DR 20 (Crushing, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [20], they will likely not take that much damage, as they can move up to 12 yards/turn (dealing 5d-1 crushing damage), and not suffer more than blunt trauma damage. Of course, this would be a good build for an animate statue or the like.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

You don't experience the same problem I showed if you use HP instead of IT:DR.

That the minimum damage is 1, even for a rat chewing on a person? Sure you do. It's the minimum level of resolution. IT:DR only hits this at a different break point.

Yes, the Healing advantage and Healing college both scale with increased HP.

Actually Campaigns specifies natural recovery, first aid, healing magic, and Regeneration. It doesn't mention surgery, the Healing advantage, or Leech. Similar to the above since 1 is the minimum damage, handing out double HP means that a minimum (round up) attack heals at twice the rate on a machine or homogeneous character for some odd reason.

It should have whatever weight a robot should have and HP based on 4 X (cube root of weight lbs.) rounded up

It should have whatever weight an elemental should have and HP based on 8 X (cube root of weight lbs.) rounded up. Assuming a Homogenous or Diffuse elemental.

Textbook answer, 16 lbs of (homogeneous) stone = 125 lbs of machine = 1000 lbs of living flesh which all calculate to HP20 by those formulas.

You keep saying "massless" which is HP that doesn't count for weight or slams, but I gather what you really mean is "slamless", where you still want full weight for all the HP but are trying to correct for the fact that you'd end up with a 125lb machine that slams better than a sumo and 16lb rocks that fall with the force of 1000 lb bodies. Actually using only a fraction of the HP for weight calculations would make them even lighter for a given quantity of HP.

When using HP, use half HP.

Any particular rationale? Presumably it's like I said above, to "fix" the car's collision value to be equal to a human of similar weight.

Of course, you can do that right before doubling the damage as a human hitting a hard Immovable Object if you do what's suggested above.

ST = HP????? For Objects??? Can I get a source for that? On page 558 under Object Hit Points Table it says:

"If the target has no ST score at all (like a wall), or is not resisting, use its HP instead" Basic page 378, so yes massless would effect knockback.

Yes, that was what I was getting at, but didn't recall the exact quote. Presumably you can sub in your HP instead of ST if that would resist knock back better.

[naloth]

As an aside, a few years ago I created a pseudo zombie apocalypse (virus, semi-realistic) for a Supers game where the virus template provided DR 40 (Ablative, Torso Only) for lots of extra "stun" instead of the more traditional zombie resilience. It gave you "zombies" that were hard to stop outside of head shots and dismemberment.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by naloth

That the minimum damage is 1, even for a rat chewing on a person?

No, that's not the problem I outlined.

Here is the problem, again:

Someone with 20 HP loses a minimum of 5% of HP, Someone with 10 hp + ITDR /2 loses minimum of 10% HP
Someone with 100 HP loses a minimum of 1% of HP, Someone with 10 hp + ITDR /10 loses minimum of 10% HP
Someone with 1000 HP loses a minimum of 0.1% of HP, Someone with 10 hp + ITDR /100 loses minimum of 10% HP

Originally Posted by naloth

Actually Campaigns specifies natural recovery, first aid, healing magic, and Regeneration. It doesn't mention surgery, the Healing advantage, or Leech.

Surgery, the Healing advantage, and Leech are covered by "etc."

High HP and Healing
The healing rates given for natural recovery, first aid, magical healing
spells, the Regeneration advantage, etc.

I beleieve there's a Krommquote to that effect, clarifying the issue.

Textbook answer, 16 lbs of (homogeneous) stone = 125 lbs of machine = 1000 lbs of living flesh which all calculate to HP20 by those formulas.

Yes?

Originally Posted by naloth

You keep saying "massless" which is HP that doesn't count for weight or slams, but I gather what you really mean is "slamless", where you still want full weight for all the HP but are trying to correct for the fact that you'd end up with a 125lb machine that slams better than a sumo and 16lb rocks that fall with the force of 1000 lb bodies. Actually using only a fraction of the HP for weight calculations would make them even lighter for a given quantity of HP.

I'm not clear what you're saying here. I really do mean "massless" for the extra HP. It would effect falling calculations, etc
I'm saying:
a 125 lbs person has 10 hp
a 125 lbs unliving has 10 hp + 10 hp Massless +0%
a 125 lbs homogeneous or diffuse has 10 hp + 30 hp Massless +0%

Originally Posted by naloth

Any particular rationale? Presumably it's like I said above, to "fix" the car's collision value to be equal to a human of similar weight.

Yes.

[AlexanderHowl]

A 125 lbs homogeneous object would have HP 40 though based on their mass. Massless HP would require a lower mass for the same HP.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A 125 lbs homogeneous object would have HP 40 though based on their mass. Massless HP would require a lower mass for the same HP.

?????? I don't understand what you're saying?

[AlexanderHowl]

HP is usually based on mass in GURPS. If you take HP (Massless), you are removing that connection for the modified HP. A HP 10 plus HP 30 (Massless) homogenous object would have a mass of 10 pounds rather than 125 lbs because that is the mass associated with a HP 10 homogeneous object.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

HP is usually based on mass in GURPS. If you take HP (Massless), you are removing that connection for the modified HP. A HP 10 plus HP 30 (Massless) homogenous object would have a mass of 10 pounds rather than 125 lbs because that is the mass associated with a HP 10 homogeneous object.

Um, no... no, it really wouldn't have a mass of 10lbs. It would, by definition, weigh 125lbs. In this context, "massless +0%" means the extra HP don't count for mass based calculations e.g. slams, knockback, etc.

E.G. So being slammed by 125 homogenous, doesn't do more damage than being slammed by 125 machine.

Also, HP are derived from mass, not mass from HP.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Um, no... no, it really wouldn't have a mass of 10lbs. It would, by definition, weigh 125lbs. In this context, "massless +0%" means the extra HP don't count for mass based calculations e.g. slams, knockback, etc.

Yes, understood though that's sort of the opposite of what was intended when it was originally (ants can fall from high distances safely, but horses go splat) suggested for living creatures. It was to make lighter things tougher than their weight would suggest not to make heavier stuff less vulnerable to collisions.

Certainly there are realistic and cinematic ways to approach the "splat" issue.

E.G. So being slammed by 125 homogenous, doesn't do more damage than being slammed by 125 machine.

That's a good goal, but I'm rapidly approaching the conclusion that neither approach is right.

Right now there's the implication that 1000 lbs of living critter is about the same resilience as 125 lbs of machine or 16 lbs of a solid substance. You would think that if the machine was made of 125 lbs of paper, tape, plastic, and metal roughly the same material strength as a person, you'd end up with similar HP to a person. It gets even worse if you try to work out what an elemental the size of a human would weigh in rock twice as dense (250 lbs of a homogeneous substance is ~50 HP). We tend to bypass this with air or fire elementals (insubstantial), though it comes if up if you have Affects Insubstantial on Bind or an Innate Attack that has knock back. I'd also throw in dismemberment/crippling as an issue for arbitrarily giving more HP, since said paper,tape, plastic machine shouldn't be harder to cripple or dismember if it is indeed of similar structure and material strength as a living critter. It's a bad generalization that machines tend to be twice as tough for a fraction of the weight.

As a very generic assumption, I'd rather treat 125 lbs of anything with a fairly consistent HP regardless of composition. How resistant to damage it is would should depend on advantages that modify composition and structure. IT:Unliving and IT:Homogenous already offer pretty good damage reduction even without any HP bonus.

That still doesn't work in all situations (annoying "weightless" ghosts still need HP after all).

Also, HP are derived from mass, not mass from HP.

If you have the right formula you should be able to work either way, within a range.