[DF] Stating up Centaurs

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

What species specific paths are common in DF?
They could also easily step over gaps other SM+1 couldn't because of the widely separated leg pairs.

I wasn't talking about paths specific to a race, but more about some things being easier for humanoid shapes of typical size. Things like pits that a humanoid might find scalable, a centauroid might well find impassable, or worse, inescapable. Makeshift bridges will be easier for smaller beings to cross, ladders and ropes easier to use, and so on. IME, such things are fairly commonplace in dungeon fantasy.

[Flyndaran]

You assume centaurs have incompetence: climbing. As reasonable as that may be, I don't think we should assume anything when dealing with mythical chimera.

I just have trouble seeing four legs as being inherently worse at more things than they are better at when compared to bipeds.

Trying to stat up exactly which is which seems off genre for DF and nearly any game that includes centaurs.

That way leads to wondering how they scratch their butts or nurse newborns without lying down.

Admittedly, I do love some over analyzing geeky insanity some times.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That way leads to wondering how they...nurse newborns without lying down.

Nobody said they don't have to lie down, and aside from that the horse parts have mammaries too.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That way leads to wondering how they scratch their butts or nurse newborns without lying down.

I would assume they hold them up to their human breasts when they're very small, and then transition to their horse breasts once they're too large for that. I suppose it depends on how you envision these creatures. Did they evolve naturally? If so, their behaviors will make sense. If they're the result of magical meddling, then it might be the case that life is difficult for centaurs because of their strange physiology.

The scratching wouldn't concern me. They're sapient tool users who are also social and live in wooded areas. They can scratch against a tree, use a stick, or get someone else to do it. How do humans scratch their backs? Most people have an area of hard to reach flesh on their back.

No, what would worry me is trying to figure out what they eat. Not only do they need an enormous amount of calories, but the easiest ways to get all those calories, and the ways that most suits their human bodies, are somewhat opposed to their horse bodies. They can hunt and eat animals. They can farm and grow grain. But their internal workings will have to be radically different from either a human's or a horse's to make this workable. If they eat grass, the human part of their digestive system gets messed up. If they don't eat grass, the horse part of their digestive system gets messed up. Their mouths are human. I would assume they eat a human diet. I can't imagine them eating grass. So... maybe they live in some place with an abundance of wild oats and fruits, which they supplement with meat from hunting. Even then, they'll have to consume a huge amount of food each day unless you give them access to lots of honey.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

No, what would worry me is trying to figure out what they eat. Not only do they need an enormous amount of calories, but the easiest ways to get all those calories, and the ways that most suits their human bodies, are somewhat opposed to their horse bodies. They can hunt and eat animals. They can farm and grow grain. But their internal workings will have to be radically different from either a human's or a horse's to make this workable. If they eat grass, the human part of their digestive system gets messed up. If they don't eat grass, the horse part of their digestive system gets messed up. Their mouths are human. I would assume they eat a human diet. I can't imagine them eating grass. So... maybe they live in some place with an abundance of wild oats and fruits, which they supplement with meat from hunting. Even then, they'll have to consume a huge amount of food each day unless you give them access to lots of honey.

In this construction, I went with them being omnivores with largely human diets. They either follow or herd animals for meat, or ranch with some farming (or gathering) on the side. Horses are one stomach animals, so I figure the magic of the chimera has squared things up, going from herbivore to omnivore.

I do follow the Biotech suggestion of them eating 2 meals that are 3.4x as big (thats the "needs 2x the rations of a human" bit, with rounding). Ive been mulling something like Slow Eater (Lose 1.5 hours -70%) [3] as well.

For other thoughts up thread, I should put in some verbiage in their descriptions I suppose, about what they can do. Ive seen enough horses crawl (under fences, trees, trailers...) that I think thats going to be fine, and I was going to mention that Centaur can kick sideways (like donkeys). Climbing is an issue. Horses dont really do it, though goats and donkeys can. Incompetence (Climbing) might not be out of the question, but is a horrible thing to saddle a DF character with. Will have to ponder. Open to suggestions on modeling it being harder to climb without making it impossible.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by chandley

Climbing is an issue. Horses dont really do it, though goats and donkeys can. Incompetence (Climbing) might not be out of the question, but is a horrible thing to saddle a DF character with. Will have to ponder. Open to suggestions on modeling it being harder to climb without making it impossible.

Horses don't have human arms to help them climb with either.

I don't think Incompetence is the right thing at all. They have the brains of humans. No matter how much they practice climbing, they can't ever get any better at it? I don't think I would give them any trait regarding their climbing. Anything they want to climb will already have to support their weight. That looks like it would be the primary concern. That and snapping their horse legs.

How are you modeling the issues horses have with their legs and healing?

[chandley]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Horses don't have human arms to help them climb with either.

I don't think Incompetence is the right thing at all. They have the brains of humans. No matter how much they practice climbing, they can't ever get any better at it? I don't think I would give them any trait regarding their climbing. Anything they want to climb will already have to support their weight. That looks like it would be the primary concern. That and snapping their horse legs.

How are you modeling the issues horses have with their legs and healing?

Ill take your argument on climbing, if only because it lets me leave the issue alone :)

I dont address the healing issue at all, as it is DF. A Centaur is smart enough to either adopt a three legged gait or simply rest while their leg(s) heal, which I understand to be a large problem with horses, and the whole lower leg lack of blood vessels thing kind of falls below the resolution of either GURPS or DF.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

If they eat grass, the human part of their digestive system gets messed up. If they don't eat grass, the horse part of their digestive system gets messed up.

You simply can't cut a human off at the waist and sow him onto a decapitated horse (Human-Equine Centipede!). Some major physiological modifications have to be assumed. That or just ignore everything in favor of magic.

For example, there has to be some connection between the human nostrils and the horse lungs, since the human lungs alone probably can't provide enough oxygen to a body that size (the nostrils are a bit small, too). You might see something like a forced air system between the two sets of lungs like birds have to get the most efficient use of each breath.

It's easiest to assume that whatever magic created them in the first place made whatever adaptations were necessary.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by chandley

A Centaur is smart enough to either adopt a three legged gait or simply rest while their leg(s) heal, which I understand to be a large problem with horses

That's my understanding as well. In the wild, a horse that cannot run is dead anyway. They never had any evolutionary pressure toward healing a leg injury.

Another issue may need to be addressed, probably as just a quirk. Unlike humanoids, they cannot reach their entire body. This was already raised with the "how do they scratch their butts" issue, but matters for other things, too. Without help, they cannot put armor or bandages on their rear legs.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Another issue may need to be addressed, probably as just a quirk. Unlike humanoids, they cannot reach their entire body. This was already raised with the "how do they scratch their butts" issue, but matters for other things, too. Without help, they cannot put armor or bandages on their rear legs.

Im not convinced that has to be true. They can lean over and around their horse body with their human torso, and step to bring their rear horse hex into reach; they can, essentially, contort and twist to cooperate with themselves. Horses can (and do) bite and nibble at just about every part of themselves, and the human torso on a centaur is a little longer at the shoulders then a horses head would be, and it also adds arms with hands. The construction I have in my head has everything from the hips up, placed where the neck would be, Thats 3 feet or so of torso and another foot and a half or so of arm. With a little twisting, that should be enough to reach anywhere on their body.

Id say they can put on anything they need to, and leave it to GMs to assess penalties in situations where it might be tough to reach (like if someone grappled their rear legs). Ill add something to the description to clarify (which shouldnt stop anyone from presenting an argument for why they cant reach, if someone cares to.)