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Old 06-04-2017, 06:41 AM   #1
Ronnke
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

This, to me, seems kinda bogus and fails my reality checking, but I want to run it by people to see if I have simply misinterpreted the rules.

The rules:
1) Any crippling injury is also a major wound, and requires a HT roll for knockdown and stunning. Basic p421.
2) Knockdown Modifiers: -10 for a major wound to the skull or eye. Basic p420.
3) Eye: Injury over HP/10 cripples the eye. Basic p399 & 421.

Based on those rules, if an attacker was to walk up to an average person and poke them in the eye for 1pt of damage. The victim's eye would be crippled as per rule [3]. As a further result, because of rule [1], the victim suffers a major wound and must make a knockdown roll. Rule [2] states the knockdown roll will be at -10 because it was a major wound to the skull or eye.

In this hypothetical, the victim (say average HT10) would need to roll a critical on the knockdown to avoid being stunned and any roll of 5 or more would result in unconsciousness. ????

In contrast, if that victim was instead axed to the skull(brain), it would take 6pts of damage (after DR) to produce the same result. Any less than 6pt and the knockdown roll is only at -5.

This seems really stupid. Eye-Poke should maybe be renamed to the Eye-Poke of doom. :P
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

To add to the apparent ridiculousness. If our victim was a one eyed pirate and was shot through his missing eye, he'd be better off provided the final damage to the brain was 5 or less. Lucky he was a one eyed pirate, for if he had both eyes, he'd be out cold. :P
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Last edited by Ronnke; 06-04-2017 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:40 AM   #3
Anders
 
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

We need to test this in real-life! Any volunteers?
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:46 PM   #4
Ronnke
 
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

To further this.

If you have Injury Tolerance (No Brain), does an attack which cripples an eye result in a -10 knockdown roll?
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

Just to clarify, a similar example to what started this:
  • Elephant (45HP) is struck in the eye for 6 HP, which is enough to cripple the eye (>5HP), but is not a major wound to the brain (>23HP)
  • The rule says Knockdown is -10 for a major wound to the eye (automatically major when crippled), but may be assuming damage is being applied to the brain.
  • Therefore, the question is whether or not a crippled eye, independent of brain injury, gets the -10.
Additionally, per MA, a crippled nose/ear are not treated similarly (that is, they are not treated as a major wound to the face, with the -5 to Knockdown).

Last edited by Gigermann; 06-04-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnke View Post
This, to me, seems kinda bogus and fails my reality checking, but I want to run it by people to see if I have simply misinterpreted the rules.

The rules:
1) Any crippling injury is also a major wound, and requires a HT roll for knockdown and stunning. Basic p421.
2) Knockdown Modifiers: -10 for a major wound to the skull or eye. Basic p420.
3) Eye: Injury over HP/10 cripples the eye. Basic p399 & 421.

Based on those rules, if an attacker was to walk up to an average person and poke them in the eye for 1pt of damage. The victim's eye would be crippled as per rule [3]. As a further result, because of rule [1], the victim suffers a major wound and must make a knockdown roll. Rule [2] states the knockdown roll will be at -10 because it was a major wound to the skull or eye.

In this hypothetical, the victim (say average HT10) would need to roll a critical on the knockdown to avoid being stunned and any roll of 5 or more would result in unconsciousness. ????

In contrast, if that victim was instead axed to the skull(brain), it would take 6pts of damage (after DR) to produce the same result. Any less than 6pt and the knockdown roll is only at -5.

This seems really stupid. Eye-Poke should maybe be renamed to the Eye-Poke of doom. :P
You may be misinterpreting the rules, or I may be. What B420 initially says is that "a lesser injury that cripples a body part also counts as a major wound - see Crippling Injury (below)." (emphasis mine) and Effects of Crippling Injury says "Any crippling injury is also a major wound, and requires a HT roll for knockback and stunning; see Knockback and Stunning (p.420)."

My interpretation is that while a crippling injury will get you a roll vs. HT for knockback and stunning for less damage than would otherwise be the case, the -10 modifier for a major wound only comes into play if it really is a major wound (i.e. does more than 1/2 your HP damage) and not if it merely "counts as a major wound", for getting you to a knockback and stunning roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnke View Post
To further this.

If you have Injury Tolerance (No Brain), does an attack which cripples an eye result in a -10 knockdown roll?
As per B420, you suffer reduced effects if you have Injury Tolerance. For No Brain specifically, you do not suffer knockback or stunning unless it's a major wound and even then take no penalty to the roll.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:51 PM   #7
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
My interpretation is that while a crippling injury will get you a roll vs. HT for knockback and stunning for less damage than would otherwise be the case, the -10 modifier for a major wound only comes into play if it really is a major wound (i.e. does more than 1/2 your HP damage) and not if it merely "counts as a major wound", for getting you to a knockback and stunning roll.
I don't believe that's the case. "Effects of Crippling Injury" is pretty clear: "Any crippling injury is also a major wound...", and "Knockdown and Stunning" is equally clear: the roll is at "-10 for a major wound to the skull or eye..."

So, in answer to the OP, yes, pretty much any attack that does damage to the eye will provoke a knockdown test, one very likely to knock you unconscious. But consider that 1 HP is not just "a poke in the eye". Your eye is literally being badly damaged here. 1 HP of damage is non-trivial. It's enough to cause ongoing blood loss. If it was 2 HP of damage, the eye would be straight-up destroyed, without hope of repair absent major, high-TL surgery. I can pretty easily see the shock of that kind of thing causing someone to lose consciousness.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

I don't think a finger poke is enough to be a point of damage.
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Old 06-04-2017, 02:16 PM   #9
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

Nearly popping an eyeball would knock down pretty much any real human being on earth.
Eye pokes don't even get within the same zipcode as a Gurps point of damage. Pain is only somewhat connected to those points.
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Old 06-04-2017, 05:12 PM   #10
Ronnke
 
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Default Re: [Rule Question] Crippling the eye and -10 knockdown roll (Bogus?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
So, in answer to the OP, yes, pretty much any attack that does damage to the eye will provoke a knockdown test, one very likely to knock you unconscious. But consider that 1 HP is not just "a poke in the eye". Your eye is literally being badly damaged here. 1 HP of damage is non-trivial. It's enough to cause ongoing blood loss. If it was 2 HP of damage, the eye would be straight-up destroyed, without hope of repair absent major, high-TL surgery. I can pretty easily see the shock of that kind of thing causing someone to lose consciousness.
Yes, 1 point is not trivial damage. However, that said, it would take 6 of those points or greater to the average brain to force the same HT-10 knockdown roll. Thus making the eye the ultimate human weakness. 1pt to the eye = unconscious.
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