06-03-2019, 06:58 AM | #811 | |
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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My view is there is no reason why that approach can't be done for character creation. It would still be GURPS with all the mechanics drawn from the core rulebooks but presented in a far more approach format. The GURPS issue compared to other RPGs has always been one of presentation. The caveats being that there not going to be a single magic bullet so multiple attempts are needed preferably done through a 3P program to minimize the impact on SJ Games time. Let the fanbase do the R&D on this one. |
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06-03-2019, 08:20 AM | #812 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
It sounds to me like you guys just want GURPS to be something other than GURPS. Spaceships isn't just a simplified presentation of Vehicles; it's a whole different system.
I keep writing responses to this topic and deleting them before I'm finished, because I can't find a way to say what I want here. So understand that what I say now is incomplete and not worded perfectly. In recent years there has been a strong emphasis on GURPS as toolkit rather than GURPS as game. People seem more interested in modifying GURPS to replicate pre-existing things rather than to just play GURPS in its generic form in any genre. Dungeon Fantasy is basically an attempt to replicate the D&D 3rd Edition experience. There are a gazillion magic systems because everyone wants magic to work a certain way based on something specific. Prime Directive seems to be all about getting people to argue Technology Levels.[/i] GURPS is much simpler when people stop fighting the system to turn it into these things. When you take the Basic Set plus Fantasy, you can create a good fantasy setting that isn't based on anything else, and nobody has to worry about the system not supporting an exact vision. You can take the Basic Set and Space and start making planets to adventure on without worry about how to model what a "strong stun setting" on a phaser means or what the formula for the speed of your warp drive is. GURPS can still be intimidating, but GURPS has always been intimidating. That's not going to change no matter how you present it. But it's a heck of a lot less intimidating when you're a newbie who can just choose traits for your character out of the Basic Set, rather than have to comb through not only that but half a dozen supplements and your GM's notes on changes made to the system. The above is all one thought. No doubt someone is going to pick out a line and criticize just that, but that will miss the point. Even though GURPS can be a toolkit to create the perfect replica of something else, its strength, and its original conception I think, is to be its own thing in all the various, non-specific genres. When it does this, it's a lot simpler for newbies to get into, because there's no pressure to conform to a preconceived idea. |
06-03-2019, 12:58 PM | #813 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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I picked this one specific things because it illustrates my point about the same rules different presentation. If you take a starship built GURP Travellers, broke down all the component and presented that then you will have a GURPS Vehicle stat block and build. However the modular system was easier for people to use. Quote:
The point of any approach is twofold 1) A path for a newcomer to master the system 2) A mode for those who know the system but don't have the time to use it as a toolkit. Presenting a version that accommodates the above will reduce the work needed to run a GURPS Campaign and thus broaden the number of players who will find GURPS useful. But what about Dungeon Fantasy RPG The DF RPG covered the Table of Content. But the problem is by going with 250 pt template in pursuit of a focus D&D style Dungeon Delving meant that the list of items for characters became too long to appeal to #1 and #2 above. Thus suffered in comparison to rival fantasy RPGs. And it lost the unique feel that GURPS had for heroic level fantasy campaigns (120 to 150 pts) But it doesn't matter But what I said, what you said doesn't matter. The real problem is that now with GURPS there isn't going to be any one approach that will work. GURPS products and core rule books needs to be diversified. We need to try just about every approach mentioned in this and other threads. Do it in a way that doesn't burden SJ Games with extra labor or capital cost than what they are doing now. If the OSR only ever had OSRIC (AD&D) or Basic Fantasy (B/X) then it would have never revived classic D&D publishing or gaming in the way it did. As important as those two RPG were to its development, their presentation was too narrow to ignite the classic D&D hobby. It was only when the number of other retro-clones exploded along with support products that the OSR got enough traction to re-ignite classic D&D. If you look at Traveller right now, you will see a different but similar process in play with Cepheus, Mongoose Traveller 2nd edition, and Traveller 5e. Because of the diversity of core books, Traveller has been attracting a lot more fans in recent years. Enough that there is now a wealth of Traveller works for people to enjoy. Then there is Runequest/Mythras, Savage Worlds, Fate, etc. While none of them are no where near knocking off any of the top 5 RPGs, they all enjoy a healthy release schedule and a wide range of products. Along with different options to handle RPG IP. Last edited by robertsconley; 06-03-2019 at 01:07 PM. |
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06-04-2019, 01:07 AM | #814 | |
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alsea, OR
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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In both GT and in Traveller T4 (SSDS is the name of the simplified system; a further simplification, QSDS, also happened, but it's a whole additional bucket of worms above and beyond this factor), the design sequence in the core was built out of a more robust but massively more detailed design book (G:V and FF&S, respectively). Designs using GT or SSDS are non-optimized when compared to same ratings targeted in design in the parent system. Characters built using templates in GURPS are often quite different from what a player would build for the concept. Fundamentally, the design systems show the opposite of your claim... a campaign using both is putting the simpler system consistently at disadvantage. In GT, template based characters are inherently less skilled at the key competencies than would be open points builds, but generally, are more broadly passably competent. And much faster and easier to pull together... but due to the way they are built, they still require an understanding of the point system. |
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06-04-2019, 03:12 PM | #815 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: near Houston
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope GURPS 3e stuff: http://copeab.tripod.com |
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06-04-2019, 03:25 PM | #816 |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
Part of the problem is that GURPS, aspiring to be generic, doesn't have a set "core activity" that the PCs all ought be competent at, and need fine grain distinctions in skills to distinguish themselves.
Some runs are combat heavy, so it makes sense to have fine grained distinctions between the big gun tank, the martial artist, and the silent stiletto assassin. In those games, talking to people may be less common, so one might only need a couple of broadly defined social or deductive skills at competent levels for the rare times you'll use them. Some runs are social heavy, so fine grained distinctions between the schmoozer, the intimidator, and the everybody's pal that folks just confide in, are important. For, say GURPS Political Intrigue, one might not need any combat skills. Take a look at how Pelgrane has tweaked GUMSHOE for Bubblegumshoe, Nights Black Agents, and say Timewatch. Same core mechanics, vastly different skill and add-on rules sets. Breaking this down -- how to fine tune GURPS for different play/campaign styles might be worth a discussion on the GURPS list. |
06-04-2019, 04:11 PM | #817 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
One thing I've thought about is making skills variable granularity. For example, you might have 20-30 broad skills costing [4], each split into 3+ concentrations costing [2], and each of those split into 3+ specializations costing [1]. Thus, if you don't care about the details, you aren't going to be horrible if you decide to just not use concentrations and specializations (names can change obviously, I think I stole those from shadowrun).
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06-04-2019, 07:30 PM | #818 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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06-05-2019, 01:02 AM | #819 | |
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: L.I., NY
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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An interesting experiment would be a small, standalone game that was based mostly on GURPS Lite customized to a particular genre, that used a version of the "Pointless" character generation system. It would be a fairly rules-lite game, with quick, modular character creation, but play would still be GURPS at its core. |
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06-10-2019, 10:49 AM | #820 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats. |
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