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Old 05-27-2015, 10:47 AM   #21
Chris Goodwin
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
Default Re: Targeting modifiers

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Originally Posted by jimmylogan View Post
If you look at it graphically it's actually pretty easy... Don't get bogged down in the minutia. Are you shooting out the front? Is the target moving side to side or at you?

Are you shooting out the side? Is the target moving side to side or at you?
Except that as the rules currently stand, there are nine cases you have to look at, and seven of them involve subtracting, halving, or both. I'm trying to figure out how to get one number on a card that you're going to have in front of you, and that number will be in the same place every time. Ideally, there'd be at most three cases with no math involved.

Smeette, I like almost everything about yours, except the subtraction involved in number 1. It may be unavoidable, though.

I think this is about as simple as I can get it:
  • -1 or -2 for every 30 mph difference (-1 per for same direction, approaching, or T, -2 per for opposite).
  • An additional -1 if the firer is crossing the T.
  • If there is ambiguity: which arc is shooting at which arc?
  • If there is still ambiguity: an additional -1.

Yes, there's still a subtraction, but you're only doing it once, and eliminating the x/10 or x/20 operations; same directions cancel out much of the penalty, opposite directions increase. I'm not terribly worried about ambiguity, because "resolve in favor of the defender" almost always means an additional -1 penalty, and that's the difference between shooting at a short side (front or back) or a long (left or right).

I haven't run numbers, but I'm going to guess that in about 75-80 percent of cases this comes within +/- 1 of both the official method and yours (Smeette).

Edit: Still not sure I'm liking something about it. I think it's that opposite directions thing; a net speed of 40 should be a net speed of 40, whether it's 20 and 60 in the same direction or 20 and 20 in the opposite. I'm going to make it -1 per 20 net speed.
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Last edited by Chris Goodwin; 05-27-2015 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:56 AM   #22
kabson
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

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Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
Smeette, I like almost everything about yours, except the subtraction involved in number 1. It may be unavoidable, though.
Well, it is an attempt to emulate the table in as few steps as possible, so it has some limitations. E.g. it limits modifiers to the target's speed. Using the difference in speeds might be an easier concept, but it can penalize faster drivers.

[I suspect the table is as precise as it is due to the type of arguments you get at tournaments... It's probably appropriate for that kind of hyper-competitive gaming, but not so much for a novice looking at the game for the first time.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
I think this is about as simple as I can get it:
  • -1 or -2 for every 30 mph difference (-1 per for same direction, approaching, or T, -2 per for opposite).
  • An additional -1 if the firer is crossing the T.
  • If there is ambiguity: which arc is shooting at which arc?
  • If there is still ambiguity: an additional -1.

Edit: Still not sure I'm liking something about it. I think it's that opposite directions thing; a net speed of 40 should be a net speed of 40, whether it's 20 and 60 in the same direction or 20 and 20 in the opposite. I'm going to make it -1 per 20 net speed.
The ambiguous steps are always going to hurt (fisticuffs over the game table), but the I'd be happy to duel with this approach.
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:49 PM   #23
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

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I've got my document built, and will post a card for feedback sometime in the next day or two. Aside from any tweaks, they're at the stage where all I need to do is print and cut. 5 mph increments from 5-200 mph; the idea is that it's everything you need, at a glance.
And I have done so. Here is the current version (the prototype is here). Feedback is requested.
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Old 05-29-2015, 11:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

-1 per 30mph ignore facing doesn't require cards or a table. It also encourages speed.
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:06 PM   #25
Hawke
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stevens Point, WI
Default Re: Targeting modifiers

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Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
Feedback is requested.
I like it. Especially the green dots on the prototype. Maybe a few minor cosmetic changes around the text layout but it looks quite handy.

Maybe bind the whole thing (wire binding? spiral binding?) and put the handling status on thicker cardstock sticking out as a backing to the whole thing -- then you could just slide the clip back and forth on the back, and turn the "page" to adjust speed. Might try that with a small notebook sometime...
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Old 05-31-2015, 10:38 AM   #26
Hawke
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

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Maybe bind the whole thing (wire binding? spiral binding?) and put the handling status on thicker cardstock sticking out as a backing to the whole thing -- then you could just slide the clip back and forth on the back, and turn the "page" to adjust speed. Might try that with a small notebook sometime...
Actually I made my own -- here's an image of what I was thinking:
https://goo.gl/photos/uTs9x3Qy6eaFBSQ59

Needs a different binding, but...
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:00 PM   #27
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

Yes, I totally got what you were describing there. We actually discussed the notion some, and everyone at the table thought that would have improved it. Not that it needed much improvement; as it is it worked fantastically, and there was no need at all to reference the tables. Moving the paper clip from one card to another was slightly annoying, and having a loose stack of cards was slightly annoying. Neither of those, separately or together was a show stopper, but your suggestion would have made it even better than it already was.

And the colored dots would have been some really good icing on the cake. The only drawback I thought of was someone who is color blind; I don't know how accessible that would be. Otherwise, I wish I had done that on the final version.
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:53 PM   #28
Hawke
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

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And the colored dots would have been some really good icing on the cake. The only drawback I thought of was someone who is color blind; I don't know how accessible that would be. Otherwise, I wish I had done that on the final version.
As long as you use different symbols, it should be fine. Of course it's not visible in my image, but I used an X for Danger/crash, a number where appropriate, and a circle to indicate safe.
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Old 06-01-2015, 10:06 AM   #29
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

If you want my file let me know. The file I've got makes one set of cards, but you have to collate it by hand; I may re-edit it (which will take a while) for four stacks. Office Depot can do the cutting, for 75 cents a cut. $5.25 and I had five sets, printed on my own inkjet printer. They can also do the spiral binding there; I didn't price that out but I'm sure it's not expensive.
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:57 AM   #30
Hawke
 
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Default Re: Targeting modifiers

Here's an updated version of mine:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgwmao614m...cards.pdf?dl=0 (If anyone wants it, I also have the Scribus source file available)

This rearranges stuff slightly to give a margin for spiral binding at the top, and also adds some pointers at the top to allow easy calculation of to-hit differences (ignoring facing though). If you're looking to print it, it should fit perfectly on Letter size paper, printed 4-up (easy to do in Acrobat Reader)

It only goes up to 100, but that could probably be extended to 150 or so; beyond that I'd probably have to remove the to-hit calculator at the top.

Comments/suggestions/criticism welcome of course.

Loosely-related: Is there any better place than this to toss player aid files like this? If nothing else I guess I'll throw it on BoardGameGeek's files section, though it doesn't seem like that's very well used.

Last edited by Hawke; 06-03-2015 at 10:05 AM.
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