[ATE] Farming example - Page 15

(E) · 07-07-2016, 03:26 PM

I was thinking a small cheap shelter (costing >2-3 annual incomes) would have difficulty maintaining 4 or 5 people for longer than a year or two. TL 9 would probably provide a lot more endurance.

At TL 8 shelters with a decent life span are a big ticket item.

TL 8 MREs last 3 years (10 years might be possible with refrigeration but the number of preservation agents in them means they should not be a complete long term diet) with freeze dried and irradiated food lasting upto 25 years (dietary gaps after a few years(10?), water and price issues)
Beans, rice and flour are going to be a huge part of the diet after a while. The first dietary deficiencies are going to kick in at 6 months without fresh food. How long it takes for that to have an effect on health I'm not sure. There are 1 year nasa and Russian simulated space missions so at least another 6 months before a healthy person has issues.

Psychology would be a huge factor to. Lock someone in a box away from daylight and . . .

~~evileeyore~~ · 07-07-2016, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (E)

Psychology would be a huge factor to. Lock someone in a box away from daylight and . . .

... I would be perfectly fine. But I'm anomalis.

(E) · 07-07-2016, 07:33 PM

The post about bunker size prompted this meandering train of thought.

Bunker size

Some of this has a large guess involved, especially as there are huge numbers of variables in some instances.
Generator and fuel
800-1600 liters per annum + 1m3 of generator and 1/3m3 of spare parts per annum
Spare air filters etc 1m3 per annum
Cleaning materials/dehumidifiers/odor absorbing material etc.
Batteries .3m3 per annum (?) + xm3

Water
Maybe 2m3 per person per annum. Lots of variables around recycling, subterranean bores etc.

Food
This is a guess as the minimum is less than 1m3 per annum (calories, fibre, protein, fat and top 20 trace elements only) but such a diet would cause problems after a while.
Say 3m3 per person per annum. W.a.g.

Lots of factors to calculate like percentage spoiled over time. Might be 1% in year 1 or 80% in year 20 (???)

Other consumables
- toiletries
- medicine
- entertainment

Airlock and showers
- 10m3 (?)

Equipment, weapons and tools
- 3m3 (?)
- excerise* (?)

Small garden or pets (?)

Living space
- 18m3 (?)

Waste storage space (?)

Add in a 20% increase in volume for compartmentalised storage and redundancy.

Lots of stuff I will have forgotten, 10m3 per person per year plus 20m3 per person plus 20m3 overhead. Group of 5 people for 10 years equals 620m3 (very ish) of space required. Round down to 600m3 so 10m by 10m by 2m by 3 stories. Plus a very large waste storage space.

Minuteman37 · 07-08-2016, 07:35 PM

When would it be safe to leave a fallout shelter assuming the nuclear bombs that were used were designed to maximize the length of time the area would be uninhabitable to humans?

It would be nice if someone could include an outline of what people can do at a given date in the area after the bomb fell too.

I know the above may sound a bit vague or non descriptive, I'm in one of those situation where I have like five or six words on the tip of my tough and without those what I'm asking becomes much harder to describe.

johndallman · 07-09-2016, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

When would it be safe to leave a fallout shelter assuming the nuclear bombs that were used were designed to maximize the length of time the area would be uninhabitable to humans?

Depending on just how determined the bomb designers were, and how freely the bombs were used in the area of interest, this could easily be decades. Wikipedia's article on the Cobalt bomb has some details.

Minuteman37 · 07-09-2016, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Depending on just how determined the bomb designers were, and how freely the bombs were used in the area of interest, this could easily be decades. Wikipedia's article on the Cobalt bomb has some details.

Ok, I've looked over that page, my copy of Disasters: Meltdown and Fallout, and GURPS campaign's section on radiation.

This... this is going to be complicated. [migraine intensifies]

adm · 07-09-2016, 12:04 PM

Don't forget weather effects. Places with little to no erosion can be hot longer than places where the topsoil goes down stream.

johndallman · 07-09-2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

Ok, I've looked over that page, my copy of Disasters: Meltdown and Fallout, and GURPS campaign's section on radiation.

This... this is going to be complicated. [migraine intensifies]

Just decide on whatever best suits your plotline. Post-apocalypse settings are not usually realistic, and your players are unlikely to complain that they should be dying of radiation poisoning.

The heroic self-sacrifice of a few who leave the bunker to obtain something that will allow others to live longer, at the cost of their own lives, might be a satisfying one-shot, but it's fiddly to avoid the recovered resource being highly contaminated.

(E) · 07-23-2016, 03:19 PM

There is a bit of atmosphere that can be gleaned from this article, including a soundbite from the emergency broadcast.

The BBC's detailed plans for nuclear war - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36865345

Edit
The coming out of the bunker farm has not been forgotten. Just thinking my way through the starting resources, Five hundred thousand to one million in consumables per person (maybe) for a 25 year stay seems to indicate big money. I was thinking 200 skilled people plus 100 kids as a starting population. This seems to indicate that there will be a reasonably large amount of resources to start the farm(s).

ericthered · 07-25-2016, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellboy

GURPS would be very unique if it got some super-thorough farming rules in print. There are 'Harvest Moon' fans, and building food supply is part of Warcraft RTS games. For people who want to build a base and do long-duration games this could be very fun component.

It seems this aspect of roleplaying is ignored because everyone's assumed to be an adventurer who will find a treasure chest and be able to use that to buy rations from the local supermarket in the town they're traveling through.

Rarely do you actually take on the role of food-producer, and when you do, it's usually as a wizard who can conjure food up. Actually non-supernatural rules for producing things (food or otherwise) seem to be absent in every RPG even though I'd love to see them.

Umm... low tech conpendium 3? it doesn't give rules for the actual rolls, but it has quite a lot...

07-07-2016, 03:26 PM	#141
(E) Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: New Zealand.	Re: [ATE] Farming example I was thinking a small cheap shelter (costing >2-3 annual incomes) would have difficulty maintaining 4 or 5 people for longer than a year or two. TL 9 would probably provide a lot more endurance. At TL 8 shelters with a decent life span are a big ticket item. TL 8 MREs last 3 years (10 years might be possible with refrigeration but the number of preservation agents in them means they should not be a complete long term diet) with freeze dried and irradiated food lasting upto 25 years (dietary gaps after a few years(10?), water and price issues) Beans, rice and flour are going to be a huge part of the diet after a while. The first dietary deficiencies are going to kick in at 6 months without fresh food. How long it takes for that to have an effect on health I'm not sure. There are 1 year nasa and Russian simulated space missions so at least another 6 months before a healthy person has issues. Psychology would be a huge factor to. Lock someone in a box away from daylight and . . . __________________ Waiting for inspiration to strike...... And spending too much time thinking about farming for RPGs Contributor to Citadel at Nordvörn Last edited by (E); 07-07-2016 at 06:23 PM.

07-07-2016, 07:33 PM	#143
(E) Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: New Zealand.	Re: [ATE] Farming example The post about bunker size prompted this meandering train of thought. Bunker size Some of this has a large guess involved, especially as there are huge numbers of variables in some instances. Generator and fuel 800-1600 liters per annum + 1m3 of generator and 1/3m3 of spare parts per annum Spare air filters etc 1m3 per annum Cleaning materials/dehumidifiers/odor absorbing material etc. Batteries .3m3 per annum (?) + xm3 Water Maybe 2m3 per person per annum. Lots of variables around recycling, subterranean bores etc. Food This is a guess as the minimum is less than 1m3 per annum (calories, fibre, protein, fat and top 20 trace elements only) but such a diet would cause problems after a while. Say 3m3 per person per annum. W.a.g. Lots of factors to calculate like percentage spoiled over time. Might be 1% in year 1 or 80% in year 20 (???) Other consumables - toiletries - medicine - entertainment Airlock and showers - 10m3 (?) Equipment, weapons and tools - 3m3 (?) - excerise* (?) Small garden or pets (?) Living space - 18m3 (?) Waste storage space (?) Add in a 20% increase in volume for compartmentalised storage and redundancy. Lots of stuff I will have forgotten, 10m3 per person per year plus 20m3 per person plus 20m3 overhead. Group of 5 people for 10 years equals 620m3 (very ish) of space required. Round down to 600m3 so 10m by 10m by 2m by 3 stories. Plus a very large waste storage space. __________________ Waiting for inspiration to strike...... And spending too much time thinking about farming for RPGs Contributor to Citadel at Nordvörn Last edited by (E); 07-07-2016 at 11:25 PM.

07-08-2016, 07:35 PM	#144
Minuteman37 Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Kenai, Alaska	Re: [ATE] Farming example When would it be safe to leave a fallout shelter assuming the nuclear bombs that were used were designed to maximize the length of time the area would be uninhabitable to humans? It would be nice if someone could include an outline of what people can do at a given date in the area after the bomb fell too. I know the above may sound a bit vague or non descriptive, I'm in one of those situation where I have like five or six words on the tip of my tough and without those what I'm asking becomes much harder to describe.

07-09-2016, 12:04 PM	#147
adm Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: MO, U.S.A.	Re: [ATE] Farming example Don't forget weather effects. Places with little to no erosion can be hot longer than places where the topsoil goes down stream. __________________ Xenophilia is Dr. Who. Plus Lecherous is Jack Harkness.- Anaraxes

07-23-2016, 03:19 PM	#149
(E) Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: New Zealand.	Re: [ATE] Farming example There is a bit of atmosphere that can be gleaned from this article, including a soundbite from the emergency broadcast. The BBC's detailed plans for nuclear war - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36865345 Edit The coming out of the bunker farm has not been forgotten. Just thinking my way through the starting resources, Five hundred thousand to one million in consumables per person (maybe) for a 25 year stay seems to indicate big money. I was thinking 200 skilled people plus 100 kids as a starting population. This seems to indicate that there will be a reasonably large amount of resources to start the farm(s). __________________ Waiting for inspiration to strike...... And spending too much time thinking about farming for RPGs Contributor to Citadel at Nordvörn Last edited by (E); 07-23-2016 at 08:59 PM.