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Old 05-12-2016, 03:55 PM   #91
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

I'm thinking my way through an under the canopy farming system for an Appalachian location and I was wondering how dominant the deciduous trees where? Especially at more moderate altitudes and terrains? Are there large swaths of evergreen trees in Appalachian forests?

My impressions of the Appalachian region are based on a few books I've read set in the region and the TV series Justified.
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Old 05-12-2016, 04:30 PM   #92
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

I'm not really sure what you're after (and probably couldn't provide it), but speaking in general, there's a lot of pine (several species), and further up or further north you also get spruce and fir. A lot of the forests are mixed oak and pine. Trees aside, there's a lot of rhododendron and mountain laurel, which are evergreen, and also grow pretty tall, especially the laurel. Deciduous trees are mostly oak, maple, some hemlock, and some others (birch, beech, cherry), but as far as I know relatively small proportions of the area are dominated by those, as opposed to also having evergreens mixed in.

Appalachia stretches from Mississippi to New York, so between that and the height of the mountains, there's a variety of climates. Exactly where your setting is might make a difference.

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Old 05-12-2016, 04:42 PM   #93
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

One of the Assumptions for the write up was farming out of view of spy satellites. My mass media sourced perception of the Appalachians is very much deciduous trees on lower terrain and pines/firs at higher elevations. I was trying to find out if there was year round cover from overhead view on a large scale.

The location is "temperate"
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Old 05-12-2016, 04:46 PM   #94
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

By the time you get up to the Ottawa Valley/Algonquin Park area, you get deciduous forests (w. lots of birch, maple, IIRC beechnut used to be here before it all got killed off) in the lowlands, which rapidly turn into cedar where there's thin soil, or mixed pine where there's better soil depth.

I haven't noticed a big change in the pattern going south to the New York border, but since that's right along the St. Lawrence seaway, it's by definition lowlands only. Not sure what it's like up into the mountains that far south.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:08 PM   #95
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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I'm thinking my way through an under the canopy farming system for an Appalachian location and I was wondering how dominant the deciduous trees where? Especially at more moderate altitudes and terrains? Are there large swaths of evergreen trees in Appalachian forests?

My impressions of the Appalachian region are based on a few books I've read set in the region and the TV series Justified.
This was my suggestion, and I grew up in the foothills of the Appalachians, myself -- southeastern Kentucky coal-mining country. It had thick, "red clay" soils, bright orange in color.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultisol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_%28soil%29

The climax forests in Appalachian high country are usually evergreens of some sort, just because I understand those use sunlight the most efficiently. However, the humidity and depth of soil in most places means areas that get cleared (for one reason or another) get thick undergrowth, followed by a thick undergrowth with deciduous saplings growing up through it.

(As I recall, this was the most difficult to move through, and you couldn't see squat. Machetes wouldn't have been out of place, but nobody had any such thing, back then).

This was followed by a thick deciduous canopy with breaks for cliffs, areas with thin soil, and wide streams or rivers. Except for the edges of the cleared areas, this was pretty easy to move through, as the lack of sunlight that reached the forest floor meant most of the undergrowth died back (and, in so doing, thickened and fertilized the soil).

(To drive along a country road was sometimes like driving through a canyon of greenery. Enough sunlight reached down far enough that the underbrush grew up to the eaves of the trees, all along the way.)

That thick-canopy deciduous forest could remain in place for decades, especially at lower elevations. At higher elevations, the evergreens would start to grow up through it. Eventually, they would crowd out the deciduous forests and take over, until they reached the "old growth" stage, and become susceptible to disease.

Fires usually cleared them out, reasonably soon thereafter, and the cycle started over again with thick undergrowth in the areas burned clear.

My idea would be to set up at the lower elevations, beneath a deciduous canopy, perhaps in the midst of a well-watered area. That means whatever crops you get don't need much irrigation, and it helps ensure maximum cover.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appala..._Ridge_forests

http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/mag...rowth-forests/

http://www.worldwildlife.org/ecoregions/na0402

This jstor article actually probably has the soil nutrient information you need:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/987161?s...n_tab_contents

This one looks kinda awesome, too:

http://m.extension.illinois.edu/fore...dwood_Mgmt.pdf

Images:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ional_Park.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rail-tnnc1.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...New_Jersey.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ional_Park.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ower_Trail.jpg

http://edugeography.com/images/appal...untains-06.jpg

http://images.fineartamerica.com/ima...dave-allen.jpg

http://images.fineartamerica.com/ima...dave-allen.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-thumbnail.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...New_Jersey.JPG

This is all probably way more than you needed or wanted, but it's kind of a unique area if you've never been there, before, and beautifully lush in ways you don't see in very many temperate areas, any longer.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:17 PM   #96
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Some of those pictures could have been taken from behind the house I grew up in. (the soil type matches too) The northern hemisphere equivalent of my back yard.
Especially this image here

Quote:
As I recall, this was the most difficult to move through, and you couldn't see squat. Machetes wouldn't have been out of place, but nobody had any such thing, back then
We had a technique for getting through that kind of growth "Bush crashing". Find a slope and head down hill at speed relying on the thickness of brush to slow you down. (when young, resilient and stupid)
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Old 05-13-2016, 07:48 AM   #97
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(SNIP)

We had a technique for getting through that kind of growth "Bush crashing". Find a slope and head down hill at speed relying on the thickness of brush to slow you down. (when young, resilient and stupid)
Now, that's funny. We never did anything like that, in Kentucky.

For one thing, if we did, we'd have almost certainly wound up in a patch of poison ivy or poison oak, or found ourselves tearing (literally...) through a thicket of blackberries or raspberries, ripping our clothes (to the extent we wore them -- cut-offs and flip-flops, with a t-shirt or tank-top for the girls, was about the extent of our summer attire...) and getting all scratched up.

Nah. We pushed our way through it. Usually, once you got past the thick brush, and under the trees, it was a lot easier to move around.

There were all sorts of little streams, like that, in Kentucky. The absence of them (and moisture, in general) made Colorado seem a strange and alien place, when we first moved here, many years ago. The trickle they call the Platte "River" would have barely qualified as a large creek, back in Corbin. In fact, Lynn Camp Creek was almost as big as the Platte, and got a lot bigger where it became part of the headwaters of Laurel River Lake (a big reservoir, nearby).

Now, when I go back to Kentucky (which I usually don't), it's like breathing soup and I almost always catch a cold. The fact that you move from cool, humid air conditioning to the hot, humid, outdoors, contributes to that -- at least in my case.

That said, I do like springtime in Colorado, because that's about the only time of the year when the state is lush and green.
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:28 PM   #98
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Thanks for keeping this going! I like the descriptions of undergrowth and how to move through it in different places.

I have sometimes pondered a fantasy setting or post-apocalyptic game set around the Salish Sea. Mountains and beeches and forests, terrible storms and shoals, lots of water-borne chase scenes ... and two great cities with a population in the millions to loot/emit radioactive monsters/escape from in a stolen Coast Guard cutter pursued by King Salmon, in a PA game.
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Old 05-16-2016, 06:08 AM   #99
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Wilson's Creek

Assumptions
-TL 8 technology available at the time of the collapse
-Temperate rainforest
-Humanity is hunted by an enemy that has early TL9 assets.
-Alternatively, humanity is hunted by reasonably intelligent, winged, monsters or mutants.
-The enemies use two methods to target or hunt.
--Clusters of heat signatures significantly higher than ambient temperatures
--Interruptions (especially straight lines) in the physical geography

Notes
- Hunting, fishing and gathering will be large parts of the farmers lives
- The threat of bombardment is countered by concealment and redundancy
- Horses or ponies are used to transport goods between the locations.

Description
The farming and infrastructure are distributed over a fairly large area for the purposes of avoiding detection and to take advantage of the resources and characteristics of specific locations. To a casual observer the various farms look like half overgrown ruins of bombed out buildings.

Hellbender Mine
The buildings surrounding the entrance of Hellbender mine where sometime ago bombed into sagging pile of metal and concrete, Grass and small trees sprout from the rubble. Despite this the buildings still function as workshops for the mine and surrounding community. The mine still produces coal though not as much as before. In addition some of the shallower chambers and tunnels are used to produce mushrooms in fairly large quantities. Some of these are used as feed for the pigs that are also kept in the mine to conceal their heat signature. These pigs are descended from domestic breeds but have periodically had feral genetics introduced to minimise inbreeding. Surplus mushrooms are used as a component of the feed given to the meal worms that are used elsewhere to feed fish and chickens. One other resource that is harvested at the mine or more precisely from older mines nearby is bat guano a phosphate and nitrogen rich fertiliser.

Croft's Orchard
The region known as croft's orchard has several old growth orchards that are now beginning to reach the end of their lifespan. They have been replaced by distributed plantings of full sized fruit trees (as opposed to modern dwarf varieties) as these can compete more easily with canopy trees for light. Loquats and other fruit trees that can tolerate shade have been planted as well.

The Vinery

This area of Wilson's creek is steeply sloped and has a southern exposure, selectively bred vines are planted here and trained to grow into the canopy. The range of vines includes grapes, pumpkin, squash, marrows, melons and cucumbers. Many of the species will include varieties that can be picked before maturity to prolong the harvest. With 40 years of selective breeding it is likely that the plant species used in this system can grow vine twice as far as pre End species to get light.

The Bowmar clan
This is a group of cattle ranchers who drove cattle in the are around Wilson's Creek. They operate almost as individuals with only a handful of cattle each. 12-20 minimum including at least 2 milk cows to produce enough food to make it viable. They also commonly plant potatoes and long lasting vegetables on their usual trails.

General plantings
Scattered around the area there are small plantings of just a few square meters where crops are planted and then the branches above are pruned. A wide variety of crops are planted to minimise the visibility to overhead observers. Inter-cropping is also used to reduce the visibility of the horticulture. Potatoes are likely to be a major crop due to their preference for an acidic soil. The locations that they are planted in will have to remain in a narrower temperature range than cereals for the growing season. This should not be too difficult given the undulating terrain.

The Creek
This area has been carefully fenced off with haphazardly strung wire netting that contains a a very free range chicken farm. Several tunnels have been dug to provide a location for meal worm production and to provide access to the chickens roosts and nesting boxes. One of the main tasks of farming chickens this way is predator control. The Creek also houses a series of dams in old bombardment craters that serve as the location for the area's fish farms.

Permaculture
In addition any native plants that are of benefit are propagated and cared for. Game is provided with a mediocum of protection against predators as well to ensure a healthy population to hunt.

Produces
- Meat; pork, beef, chicken, fish
- Staples; Potatoes and possibly Taro if subtropical microclimates exist.
- Reasonable range of vegetables
- Coal

Requires
- Potassium, This may be collected from ashes in areas that experience incendiary bombing, possibly meriting decoys to provoke an attack.
- insecticides and chemicals for pest management will be extremely valuable.

Skills present
-Animal handling
-Farming
-Gardening
-Riding
-Tracking
-Area knowledge
-Vet

Farming systems in general

Crops

Due to the contour of the terrain and the need to remain under the canopy most horticulture takes place in small self contained plots, frequently with some infrastructure such as rudimentary irrigation and irregular fencing. Each “farm” will consist of several relatively self contained systems each taking advantage of a specific location's properties. For example down hill from a water source there is an opportunity due to contour to prune the trees allowing additional light without interrupting the canopy, this area is surrounded in a fence and planted with a crop, a pipe is run to the water source and if possible an automated watering system is set up, the crop is harvested before autumn so the the leaf litter will further conceal the workings.

Browsing and grazing stock

With sufficient resources it would be possible to contain stock beneath the canopy, browsing animals (Deer and Goats) are both notorious for their ability to get past a simple fence. That leaves cattle as the species most likely to thrive under a canopy. Provided EM detection isn't an issue then a single or two wire electric fence can contain cattle. Under trees (depending on the species of tree and grasses present) the stocking rate will be low, maybe 1/12th of a pasture system in straight forest if mixed pasture/forest is used then the stocking rate could get up to ˝ that of a pasture system with large amounts of cover remaining. There is also the added complication of wintering the animals as the least growth will coincide with calving (temperament and health issues)* this means that the animals are at their most distributed when they need the most management. This is related to a practice known as Silvopasture, which may or may not be present.

Mycoforestry

Due to the amount of shade in the environment farming fungi is a more attractive option. Inoculating finer timber scraps and sawdust (compressed sawdust works well) with fungal spores allows harvesting of forest mushrooms in thirteen weeks in some cases. Temperature control and/or careful placement will improve harvests both in terms of yield and reliability.

Fungi can also be used to clean up bacterial contamination, especially in run off, this is a relatively new field and so far only E.coli has been tested. Fungi can also be used to reinforce the structural strength of wood chip stacks to reduce susceptibility to rain run off.

One other thing for AtE settings is using fungi to bind heavy, toxic and valuable material out of solid waste, E-waste specifically.

Orchards
Depending on the microclimate the fruit dominating the orchard may be stone fruit (temperate) or softer fruit (pomes?), like apples, pears and members of the rose family (subtropical).

Bees

(I remembered them this time)
Caution must be had harvesting hives near rhododendrons (common in the area) as they can result in toxic honey. Skilled bee keepers will know how to work around this difficulty.

*Interesting fact, a bull will close it's eyes before striking with its head, this is to protect its eyes when fighting another male for dominance. This gives you a good chance to dodge. Cows on the other hand don't close their eyes before striking with their head and can adjust their aim in the last moment.

More crunch later, maybe more subsystems too. Polydamas, if you want a write up, post some assumptions and details (this really makes things easier) such as TL, time since end and the "flavour. As usual this is a work in progress and I hope the research I did on the area was sufficient to prevent any glaring errors.
".

Crunch

Vinery
- Permaculture results in 40kgs of Pork, chicken or fish production supported per hectare regardless of other plantings.
- Grapes 250kgs per hectare, more with insecticide.
- Pumpkin, squash, kamo-kamo, marrows, 2-4 tonnes per hectare or 0.6 tonnes of protein production supported, heavy fertilizer application is required for the higher yield.

Hellbender Mine
- The meat production at the mine is largely dependent on the animal feed from other areas, as such the crunch for meat production is listed at the food source, this is supplemented by mushroom production.
- Mushroom production is only limited by labour, in excess of 100 tonnes could be feasibly produced. The largest current subterranean mushroom farm has the capacity to produce 30,000 tonnes of mushrooms per annum.
[Edit] The sulphur content of a coal mine will be detrimental to mushroom production.
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Old 05-16-2016, 12:25 PM   #100
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More crunch later, maybe more subsystems too. Polydamas, if you want a write up, post some assumptions and details (this really makes things easier) such as TL, time since end and the "flavour. As usual this is a work in progress and I hope the research I did on the area was sufficient to prevent any glaring errors.
".
If I were going to run an AtE "if this goes on-" game, and knew nothing about the players, ... humh.

Lets say its circa 2100 and we have failed to get our act together on climate change. Sea levels are rising, nobody can predict the weather, everywhere is too hot and has too much or too little water, and nobody can agree what to do.

The big one came in '33 and scoured a lot of coastline with tsunamis. Fighting over water, geo-engineering, and refugee flows has involved both nuclear weapons exchanged between states and low level civil war and ethnic cleansing in “the West” and most of the large countries of the 1990s only exist on paper. In other words, take some of the pessimistic scenarios about climate change and run with them in a gamer-friendly direction.

Esquimalt, Vancouver, and Seattle were all nuked and a number of bombs landed in unexpected places. Some places in the Pacific Northwest have a RCMP post and a post office and a weather station and see a judge now and then, and there may be one or two ports on the mainland somewhere keeping up a trickle of trade across the Pacific which are integrated into what passes for high-tech civilization, but mostly the locals have to fend for themselves. A fair number of refugees from East Asia got through, ranging from rich businessmen wanting to wait out the civil wars in China in their Canadian mansion to desperate peasants and help-desk staff, and Americans have been drifting north too. Some isolated coastal settlements and First Nations reserves are doing relatively well for themselves. The focus would be on the coast and on travel by boat rather than motorbikes and pickup trucks in the interior.

Tone ... I am thinking about a S.M. Stirling level of gonzo. Maybe some optimistic pre-fall technology, and a take on adventure with room for progress and bumbling through rather than continual mental and physical decline, but no mutants, psi, or alien space bats.
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