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Old 04-15-2012, 04:06 AM   #21
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Sure, but you price it as a bamboo/hardwood recurve bow, which should wind up being expensive enough to make you say "YOW!" :-)
Woops, apparently a Daikyu is not a longbow, but a Composite Bow, having better stats across the board, but heavier (and more MinST), and costing 900 instead of 200. It still has a less punishing Bulk than the longbow, though.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:44 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Bulk penalty occurs when using a move and attack.
Heroic Archers ignore that anyway. I suppose you can have "cinematic archers" that lack Heroic Archer, but it doesn't seem likely.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:00 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Heroic Archers ignore that anyway. I suppose you can have "cinematic archers" that lack Heroic Archer, but it doesn't seem likely.
I was assuming realistic rather than DF Legolas archers.
I guess I should have put that qualifier in my initial post.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:44 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I was assuming realistic rather than DF Legolas archers.
You said "cinematic archers" hence my confusion about the penalty.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

Short Bow: ST 7, Cost $50
Longbow: ST 11, Cost $200

If you have less than ST11, then the Short Bow is going to be preferable.

Next bit of data:
Starting Wealth:
TL0: $250
TL1: $500
TL2: $750
TL3: $1000

There is a big difference between $50 and $200, especially when you don't have a lot of starting wealth to begin with. Especially if you have to spend money on other items.

For some character types (primarily expensive melee types), I see the Short Bow being most attractive as a secondary weapon. If you spend most of your money on a horse or broadsword and shield and armor, that $50 price tag is going to be useful.

For some character types (people spending cp on DX or IQ rather than ST--mages, faces, etc--who will also probably want the lighter weapon due to encumbrance/mobility issues), the Short Bow may be the only bow option for ranged weapons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Bulk penalty occurs when using a move and attack.
In a non-cinematic game...there shouldn't be a lot a bow Move and Attacks. Unless the archer has really, really high skill. It isn't easy to Move and Attack with a bow. And the -6 Bulk of the Short Bow is the best of all the Bow Bulk ratings...so the others are worse. And -2 can be quite a lot.

Last edited by trooper6; 04-15-2012 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:15 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

A few Facts:

How about the fact that the nobles did not like the fact that anyone could damage their precious/expensive to maintain and train knights.

The long bow was a late comer and required a lot of training, this means expenses, poor people need to work for a living, not spend their time training for an edge they did not need.

The "king", or whatever noble, did not allow peasants to hunt large animals, so the peasants sis not have a legitimate reason for the long bow. The CR should not be the same for Short bows and Long bows.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:01 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
Next bit of data:
Starting Wealth:
TL0: $250
TL1: $500
TL2: $750
TL3: $1000

Also as a note...for a lot of the time periods covered by these techs (historically)...Average wealth would not be the wealth enjoyed by the majority of the people...

A rough distribuition might be:

Dead Broke: 5-10%
Poor: 10-15%
Struggling 15-30%
Average 15-20%
Comfortable 5-15%
Wealthy 3-8%
Very Wealthy 2-4%
Filthy Rich 1-2 %
Mulitmillionaire+ >1%

But basically approx 60-80% of the pop would be struggling or lower and about 10-15% would be above average...usually as the TL goes up more people would move from the bottom up the chain and the Pyramid struture tends to become more like an oval...

So for the vast majority of the population even a $50 short bow could be half or more of their "starting capital" and a longbow (if found) would be an item that would be something to be traded for food...or land...or a cow...

Even a Noble equipping troops would likely be thinking...peasants breed like flies so to corvee them and hand them spears is cheap...why would I even want to give them bows? (assuming I had the cash to buy them??)
<after all IIRC it was the Edwardian Nobles for who the Land Rich, Cash Poor phrase was coined>

Now for the small number of 'professional' soldiers/mercs...yeah you do want the best that money can buy...but in (historical) society like these...you are a Yeoman...because someone thought your grandfather had promise...gave him a freehold farm in return for obligation of service...and started teaching him the Longbow...


YMMV but that's (one) historians take...
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:15 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by EtVous View Post
How about the fact that the nobles did not like the fact that anyone could damage their precious/expensive to maintain and train knights.
Longbows are not anti-tank weapons. They're not harmless to armored knights but they're not that big a threat.

Also, if you're banning anti-knight weapons you'd need to start with spears.
Quote:
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The long bow was a late comer and required a lot of training, this means expenses, poor people need to work for a living, not spend their time training for an edge they did not need.
All bows required a lot of training. And longbows are in no wise a late-arriving technology.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
You said "cinematic archers" hence my confusion about the penalty.
I wrote that it would take a cinematic archer to hit the broad side of a barn. As in it would take something that I don't want to overcome the penalty.
Basic rules are cinematic, Heroic Archer pushes it far further into D&D realms.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why short bow instead of long bow?

I do think that a realistic archer could experience the Bulk penalty and still have a chance to hit. But it would be for firing in close combat, not for a Move and Attack, and you're not going to select your bow based on it being marginally less useless in that extremity.
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