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Old 03-03-2012, 01:51 PM   #41
Anders
 
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Default Re: [IW] Non-Nazi Germany-Dominant World?

Yeah, you're probably right. Hitler was a Catholic anyway.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:30 PM   #42
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The earlier the divergence point the greater the difference in now.

I'm pretty ignorant of German history but the obvious points (which have all been touched on in the thread) for divergence would seem to be:

1) The Reformation. If it doesn't happen or starts somewhere else or is successful enough to actually reform Western Christianity entirely then things turn out very differently. If Luther becomes Pope (to take an extreme example but Kingsley Amis imagined it in THE TRANSFORMATION, so why not?) then we have a culturally united Western Europe with Germany having a huge cultural 'one-up' on the rest of Christendom.

2) The Thirty Years War. If there were a win for either Catholic or Protestant (which seems unlikely but possible) then a forced cultural unity under a dynamic Imperial dynasty could produce a long period of growth and gradually growing integration. Or the war could be resolved on a basis that doesn't leave the doctrine of cuijus regio eijus religio in place but rather a genuine stab at religious toleration and liberty. I suspect however that would only emerge after an even longer and bloodier war. A strong and dynamic Imperial line is needed again.

3) The Napoleonic Wars. This is probably the last chance for a change that doesn't leave the Prussians leading the drive to German unification. If Napoleon doesn't happen,for whatever reason, then one could conceivably see an entirely civilian movement to greater German unity. Perhaps the links to the British Royal Family would be stronger and perhaps some sort of co-operation in.... Steampunktech! Railways! Postal unions! Boring civilian but useful stuff like that.

4) 1848. I'm not sure that I agree that the autocratic governments of Europe would rise up to crush the new regime. The autocratic governments can well remember what happened the last time they tried to crush a popular revolution: it just spread the infection and mess about a lot. Perhaps they try to get the starry-eyed idealists 'on side'. Invite them to the 19th Century equivalent of the Bilderberg meetings or whatever.

5) 1870: The Franco-Prussian War. What if the Prussians lose? Badly? There's no limit to the supply of military pride and overconfidence. Who else might step forward.

Anything after that (though I like the vision someone had of a healthy, sane Kaiser Bill) is a bit too late to make enough difference, in my estimation. You have to make a lot of optimistic assumptions instead of just one or two.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: [IW] Non-Nazi Germany-Dominant World?

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[...]
4) 1848. I'm not sure that I agree that the autocratic governments of Europe would rise up to crush the new regime. [...]
Russian troops operated inside the borders of the Austrian Empire during the revolution. They eliminated the revolution in Hungary. There is no doubt about it that the czar would intervene: he actually did.

But given how the musket equipped Russian troops fared against the Minié ball equipped British troops in the Crimean War, it is not inconceivable that a popular German army at least partly equipped with the needle-fired rifle (which was a top secret Prussian weapon in 1848) could stood it's ground.
A truly republican-democratic leadership could have liberated the non-Russian countries.
When the dust settles Germany could be the de-facto leader of an republican anti-Russian block (Poland, Belorussia, the Baltic, Finland, part of the the Balkans). "The enemy of my enemy" and all that.

Re: your #5: Not quite sure how loosing to Napoleon III in 1871 will help.

Another divergence point: the 1525 "Peasant's War." It they win you've get a centralized Holy Roman Empire as a constitutional (elected) monarchy with a (rudimentary) bill of rights...
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:59 PM   #44
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Default Re: [IW] Non-Nazi Germany-Dominant World?

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Not really. Here's Martin Luther's recommendations on how to treat the Jews:
  1. for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight;
  2. for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings;
  3. for their religious writings to be taken away;
  4. for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do;
  5. for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews;
  6. for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and
  7. for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.

That's pretty bad. And he was in no way unique.
Martin Luther, kind of, you know, lived several centuries earlier. Hitler was unique for the political climate of Western Europe in the early twentieth century. It is hard to think of any political circumstance at the time other then Hitler coming to power that would have ended in an anti-Jewish genocide sponsored by a Western European state.

For the matter of that, anti-jewish genocides on that scale never took place in Martin Luther's time. Displacements did and local pograms did. But Jews were considered valueable by various princes and Catholics, Protestants, and Moslems were really more interested in exterminating each other then in exterminating Jews.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: [IW] Non-Nazi Germany-Dominant World?

One late timeline change that could have major implications is if Fredrick III (Kaiser Wilhelm II's father) did not have throat cancer and reigned more than 99 days. If he had stayed in power longer Imperial Germany would most likely have avoided the naval build up that so annoyed the U.K.
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Last edited by adm; 03-03-2012 at 11:39 PM. Reason: Time line clarification.
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Old 03-04-2012, 04:20 AM   #46
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One late timeline change that could have major implications is if Fredrick III (Kaiser Wilhelm II's father) did not have throat cancer and reigned more than 99 days. If he had stayed in power longer Imperial Germany would most likely have avoided the naval build up that so annoyed the U.K.
Yep, that one is a favourite "good" Prussian divergence. It would probably lead to a close Anglo-German alliance, though. For a German-dominated parallel you'd probably need something bad to happen to Britain that doesn't happen to Germany at the same time. Maybe an inadvisable involvement in the American Civil War through the Trent Affair? That would likely mean a very powerful USA, but with Britain less powerful the German element in the US (which was strong before WWI) could maybe achieve parity with the Anglo-American element.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:41 AM   #47
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Default Re: [IW] Non-Nazi Germany-Dominant World?

Prussia is defated in the German War of 1866 with the help of US military technology (e.g. repeating rifles and superior tactics) and a Bavarian dominated Central European Confederation is created, built upon communitarian, libertarian and anarcho-syndicalist principles (think swiss meets republican spain).

If an alternative history is good enough for literature (An den Feuern der Leyermark, by Carl Amery, no english translation, to my knowledge), it is surely good enough for roleplaying.
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:27 AM   #48
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Prussia is defated in the German War of 1866 with the help of US military technology (e.g. repeating rifles and superior tactics) and a Bavarian dominated Central European Confederation is created, built upon communitarian, libertarian and anarcho-syndicalist principles (think swiss meets republican spain).

If an alternative history is good enough for literature (An den Feuern der Leyermark, by Carl Amery, no english translation, to my knowledge), it is surely good enough for roleplaying.
Wow, Bavarian alternate history authors I've never heard of. Thanks for the reading suggestion. Though, I feel compelled to add that alternate history in literature (in the widest sense) does often fall short of what would be even remotely likely (e.g. S. M. Stirling's Draka series).
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:29 AM   #49
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Default Re: [IW] Non-Nazi Germany-Dominant World?

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Prussia is defated in the German War of 1866 with the help of US military technology (e.g. repeating rifles and superior tactics)
Huh? What are we talking about here or is this one part of the alternative history?
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:54 AM   #50
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Huh? What are we talking about here or is this one part of the alternative history?
Part of the alternate history, although I don't quite see how the Central European Confederation ends up Bavarian-dominated, given that Austria is the major power on the winning side.
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