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Old 10-17-2014, 04:01 PM   #21
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Or 20 points in an archer template (GURPS Power Ups 2: Perks p. 4) which ST 12 alone gets you.
From there it's one per 20 points in combat, military, or police skills and one per 10 points in a style or combative template.
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Old 10-17-2014, 05:05 PM   #22
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
From there it's one per 20 points in combat, military, or police skills and one per 10 points in a style or combative template.
Of which "Longbowman [75 points]" or whatever would qualify (and allow seven style perks).

Really if 120+ lbs bows are only for exceptional individuals, why did the Mary Rose have 250 of them?

Last edited by sir_pudding; 10-17-2014 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Mary Rose.
I try not to correct people on this thread, but calling a ship that sank with people on board makes me want to black-humor-giggle when called Merry.
Ain't nobody merry on that boat.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Mary Rose.
I try not to correct people on this thread, but calling a ship that sank with people on board makes me want to black-humor-giggle when called Merry.
Ain't nobody merry on that boat.
Gah! I got some wires crossed at some point.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

Still trying to figure out, 98 lbs for average training, 144 lbs for (large numbers of) skilled archers, or should it be 128 lb? I'm trying to figure out what to assume for a large group of soldiers, who for playability's sake would have identical stats. Should average training be be an assumption of (typically) 98 lb, and skilled be an assumption of (typically) 144 lb? And if they've gone through somewhat less training then English longbowmen, would it still be 144 lbs, or 128 lb?

(Or more accurately, average training meaning skilled soldiers, but with training split about equally between hand-to-hand and archery, or maybe more in melee combat.)
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Old 10-18-2014, 12:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Just quickly doesn't that make it harder for stronger archers to get benefit from their skill (i.e they need a higher skill in order to get the bonuses)?
Yes. Idea is that more powerful weapons require greater skill to get those last dregs of optimal use, part of my continuing efforts to tinker with the skill system. Mostly based off personal experience where stronger bows definitely felt more difficult to control even if I could still draw them fully. Still, my experience is very limited so I'm open to counter arguments.
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Old 10-18-2014, 02:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Yes. Idea is that more powerful weapons require greater skill to get those last dregs of optimal use, part of my continuing efforts to tinker with the skill system. Mostly based off personal experience where stronger bows definitely felt more difficult to control even if I could still draw them fully. Still, my experience is very limited so I'm open to counter arguments.
Ah I was thinking in terms of a stronger archer, but yes if your seeing it in terms of a more powerful powerful bow I can see what you mean.

Personally I'd say the combination of needing high St and High skill is potentially double dipping the cost of accessing this effect.


In terms of stringer bows being more difficult to control I'd say its a more a factor of trying to keep a heavy bow drawn while aiming. If you use the AP system you can show that with a little tweaking. (I think historically heavy war bows were not aimed for this very reason, but then that's because they were shooting at larger patches of ground at set distances)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-18-2014 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 10-18-2014, 02:41 AM   #28
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
This. Soldiers (and farmers and laborers) need ST. That gives them HP, which they also need. If you want them a little weaker, give them Strongbow, but otherwise, just give them ST, and reserve the perk for the PC (or elf).
No one disagrees with a range of ST, it's just the base ST's needed to draw Historically accurate bows are very high in terms of what else they can do.

Then you also have the other issues that a ST17 longbowmen is actually kind of wasted on a battle field doing 1d+2, when he could be doing 3d+3 with a halbard*. And can wear 110lbs of armour before being lightly encumbered (or roughly three DR5 mail haubucks).

ST17 is almost 3x stronger (in terms of BL) than the average human, I think that once we're talking about thousands of such individuals in medieval England moving that far away from average in such broad terms is pretty unlikely.

Then you have the issues of that if these archers are not mixing it up in melee to take advantage of their ST's than the troops you are relying on in melee have to roughly be as strong or stronger to be there. So that's everyone on the battlefield at that level of ST (or running away from those archers).

Basically there are a lot of knock on effects by saying well just give historical archers the base ST they need to fire such bows.

*Which is of course it own problem, but partially countered by the fact they can wear a lot of DR.
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Old 10-18-2014, 03:23 AM   #29
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Ah I was thinking in terms of a stronger archer, but yes if your seeing it in terms of a more powerful powerful bow I can see what you mean.

Personally I'd say the combination of needing high St and High skill is potentially double dipping the cost of accessing this effect.
Since the bonus is entirely houserule I don't feel too bad about the rather steep cost.

Bows occupy an interesting niche as far as muscle powered weapons. Imagine if a knight had to get a new, precisely calibrated sword every time his ST changed.

My general philosophy on arming archers is that an (adventuring) archer will get the most powerful bow they can afford, up to their effective ST for using a bow. The corollary being that if a single design is mass produced and issued en masse, those archers will train up to the ST needed for that bow and generally no farther.


Quote:
In terms of stringer bows being more difficult to control I'd say its a more a factor of trying to keep a heavy bow drawn while aiming. If you use the AP system you can show that with a little tweaking. (I think historically heavy war bows were not aimed for this very reason, but then that's because they were shooting at larger patches of ground at set distances)
Hadn't considered AP, I'll look into that. Thanks!
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Old 10-18-2014, 03:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: Typical ST for a war bow?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No one disagrees with a range of ST, it's just the base ST's needed to draw Historically accurate bows are very high in terms of what else they can do.

Then you also have the other issues that a ST17 longbowmen is actually kind of wasted on a battle field doing 1d+2, when he could be doing 3d+3 with a halbard*. And can wear 110lbs of armour before being lightly encumbered (or roughly three DR5 mail haubucks).

ST17 is almost 3x stronger (in terms of BL) than the average human, I think that once we're talking about thousands of such individuals in medieval England moving that far away from average in such broad terms is pretty unlikely.

Then you have the issues of that if these archers are not mixing it up in melee to take advantage of their ST's than the troops you are relying on in melee have to roughly be as strong or stronger to be there. So that's everyone on the battlefield at that level of ST (or running away from those archers).

Basically there are a lot of knock on effects by saying well just give historical archers the base ST they need to fire such bows.

*Which is of course it own problem, but partially countered by the fact they can wear a lot of DR.

Using realistic rules vetted on physics and math in comparison to rules that are arbitrary is a bit daft. One is based on reality, the other is literally there because someone said: "eh, looks good". The st based damage chart is not realistic, so any use of it to peg real world stats is completely impossible. And produces crazy things like st 17 longbowmen who make better sense as st 17 swordsmen.

Its obvious that extremely powerful longbows were used in numbers for long periods of time, and the numbers for st dont jive with reality. To get a massively powerful warbow, like those used on the Mary Rose, you have to have a lot of conans. Which is ludricrous.

The problem is not that st 13+ is extremely rare. Its that the rules for st are pretty whacked. The table needs to be adjusted to make st 13+ not ludricous to possess.

I think theres a lot of ways to do this. But it has to be fixed, because currently its impossible to build a longbow archer who wouldnt rip the head off an Nfl lineman. Because i have met some people who shoot at the lower level of warbow territory, and while they are strong and fairly fit, they arnt linemen size. Maybe wide reciever, qbs or a small safety. Maybe a small linebacker.

There has to be more deviation between the "average" than 5 levels of strength.

I am, again, partial to doubling hp, doubling drs, keeping the damage chart the same, and giving all guns a base armor divisor of 2. Greater granularity.

Otherwise your going to constant bump heads with the unrealistic melee and lifting for st.
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