Simple question about defaults

[cupbearer]

Hi,

Defaults confuse me, even after playing this game for more than ten years. here is a real life example - help me out:

Sir Basil has DX 10 and has spent the following points:
two handed sword 32
broadsword 1
shortsword 0

therefore:
His two handed sword is 18
His broadsword is 14
what level is short sword?

it says you can't base a default on a default, but technically he has spent a point in broadsword, what is the right answer?

thanks for your help.

(also - im not looking for house rules, need to know RAW).
Oliver.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Hi,

Defaults confuse me, even after playing this game for more than ten years. here is a real life example - help me out:

Sir Basil has DX 10 and has spent the following points:
two handed sword 32
broadsword 1
shortsword 0

His two handed sword is 18
His broadsword is 13
what level is short sword?

it says you can't base a default on a default, but technically he has spent a point in broadsword, what is the right answer?

If he has spent any points whatsoever on a skill, it is no longer a default skill, even if he hasn't spend enough to actually raise past default.

[Plane]

*reads B208*
I've always found the defaults so confusing that it makes the "just raise DX" or "just buy Sword!" more attractive... It's easy enough to do with one "main weapon" but knowing what the ideal default to what is when they're close-in-measure gets harder.

I'm instinctively sure how the read the "Defaults" at the end of this entry... but I think "Force Sword" gives the clearest indication:

"Default: any sword skill at -3."

So it is describing what that skill defaults to... if "Defaults: " plural you'd just choose the best one I guess.

An interesting alternative way to present it would be "Defaults from..." where you list other skills that default to the skill in question.

Force sword for example, lets these skills default from it:
Broad -4
Jitte -4
Knife -3
Short -4
2H -4

cupbearer since Broadsword defaults to 2Hsword at -4, if you have 2Hsword at 18, shouldn't your Broadsword with 0 points in it be at 14?

I agree with DJ, it sounds JUST to let other skills default to your Broadsword even if the 1 character point you spend on it is only 25% of the amount required to raise it from 14 to 15. It makes that point less "pointless" after all (although a 2nd or 3rd point would probably be pointless, until you can upgrade to the 4 required to raise it... maybe some kind of partial benefits could exist?)

SS defaults to BS at -2 so that should make it skill 12

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by Plane

*reads B208*
I've always found the defaults so confusing that it makes the "just raise DX" or "just buy Sword!" more attractive... It's easy enough to do with one "main weapon" but knowing what the ideal default to what is when they're close-in-measure gets harder.

I'm instinctively sure how the read the "Defaults" at the end of this entry... but I think "Force Sword" gives the clearest indication:

"Default: any sword skill at -3."

So it is describing what that skill defaults to... if "Defaults: " plural you'd just choose the best one I guess.

An interesting alternative way to present it would be "Defaults from..." where you list other skills that default to the skill in question.

Force sword for example, lets these skills default from it:
Broad -4
Jitte -4
Knife -3
Short -4
2H -4

cupbearer since Broadsword defaults to 2Hsword at -4, if you have 2Hsword at 18, shouldn't your Broadsword with 0 points in it be at 14?

I agree with DJ, it sounds JUST to let other skills default to your Broadsword even if the 1 character point you spend on it is only 25% of the amount required to raise it from 14 to 15. It makes that point less "pointless" after all (although a 2nd or 3rd point would probably be pointless, until you can upgrade to the 4 required to raise it... maybe some kind of partial benefits could exist?)

SS defaults to BS at -2 so that should make it skill 12

okay interesting perspective.

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If he has spent any points whatsoever on a skill, it is no longer a default skill, even if he hasn't spend enough to actually raise past default.

so you agree with plane that short sword should be 12 then?

[Varyon]

A skill that has been “bought up” from its default seems to be treated in all ways (other than the number of character points you’ve spent on it) as though you’d bought the skill to that level normally (you can improve Techniques, for example). I don’t think RAW addresses how a skill into which you’ve invested points but not enough for a +1, but treating it the same as a “bought up from default” skill seems the most appropriate.

As for partial benefits from spending fewer than [+4] on a skill that’s high enough to cost [+4]/level, I believe RAW would let you improve Technique(s) and then trade those points in later to boost the skill (so long as this doesn’t cause your actual skill with that Technique to go down). As a houserule, treating [+2] as a +1 to skill for purposes of Attack or Defense only would probably be fair.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Sir Basil has DX 10 and has spent the following points:
two handed sword 32
broadsword 1
shortsword 0

therefore:
His two handed sword is 18
His broadsword is 14
what level is short sword?

it says you can't base a default on a default, but technically he has spent a point in broadsword, what is the right answer?

Two-Handed Sword is DX/A, 32 points is DX+8, which is 18.

Broadsword is also DX/A. the default from Two-Handed Sword is -4, giving 14. Having 1 point in it means Sir Basil actually knows the skill, at 14.

Shortsword has no default from Two-Handed Sword, but defaults to Broadsword -2, giving 12. This is not a default from a default, because Sir Basil has a point in Broadsword. The fact that it's not enough to buy up his default from Two-Handed Sword does not matter, as per this Kromm post.

[coronatiger]

I interpret the rules differently. Sir Basil knows a LOT about using 2h swords, and a little about broadswords. The difference is large enough that if he swings a broadsword 1-handed, he'd be better off treating the weapon like a 2h sword, even if he takes a -4 penalty. A shortsword, OTOH, is too small to be used with 2h skill, so he must resort to using his meager broadsword skill with it, which is 9. Subtracting the -2 default penalty gives an effective skill of 7. Which is still better than DX-5.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Hi,

Defaults confuse me, even after playing this game for more than ten years. here is a real life example - help me out:

Sir Basil has DX 10 and has spent the following points:
two handed sword 32
broadsword 1
shortsword 0

therefore:
His two handed sword is 18
His broadsword is 14
what level is short sword?

it says you can't base a default on a default, but technically he has spent a point in broadsword, what is the right answer?

thanks for your help.

(also - im not looking for house rules, need to know RAW).
Oliver.

Look at it this way: imagine he has not spent any points in two-Handed Sword, but only that one point in Broadsword. His skill with that wouldn't be 14, but still that one point means he actually has that skill. So his skill with Shortsword isn't based on a default, it's based on a skill he has actually studied. He does get to use a shortsword at Broadsword-2. The fact that his mastery of Two-Handed Sword places his Broadsword at a much higher, and default-calculated, level, does not change the fact that his Broadsword isn't entirely based on defaulting from Two-Handed Sword.

So I agree with what others have said, above. His Shortsword isn't based on DX, but on Broadsword.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Hi,

Defaults confuse me, even after playing this game for more than ten years. here is a real life example - help me out:

Sir Basil has DX 10 and has spent the following points:
two handed sword 32
broadsword 1
shortsword 0

therefore:
His two handed sword is 18
His broadsword is 14
what level is short sword?

it says you can't base a default on a default, but technically he has spent a point in broadsword, what is the right answer?

thanks for your help.

(also - im not looking for house rules, need to know RAW).
Oliver.

The bolded part above is not possible per RAW.

"Improving Skills from Default" (B173):

"If your default level in a skill is high enough that you would normally have to pay points for that level, you may improve the skill past its default level by paying only the difference in point costs between your new level and your default level." (sic)

That "difference in point costs between your new level and your default level" is key.

Since Sir Basil's broadsword default is 14, Attribute+4 in this case, he must go for Attribute+5 in broadsword to improve it above default which is 4 points not 1. At best all that 1 point would be is a bookkeeping note showing he is working on actually knowing the skill which he achieves once he reaches 4 points in the skill.

Yes, you can interpret that 1 point as meaning Sir Basil knows something about the skill but the request was regarding Rules as Written. The FAQ (3.3.1) isn't much help either.

Originally Posted by Michele

Look at it this way: imagine he has not spent any points in two-Handed Sword, but only that one point in Broadsword. His skill with that wouldn't be 14, but still that one point means he actually has that skill. So his skill with Shortsword isn't based on a default, it's based on a skill he has actually studied. He does get to use a shortsword at Broadsword-2. The fact that his mastery of Two-Handed Sword places his Broadsword at a much higher, and default-calculated, level, does not change the fact that his Broadsword isn't entirely based on defaulting from Two-Handed Sword.

In theory you could say Sir Basil learned Broadsword back when his two handed sword skill was lower but that raises the issue of what is Broadsword's level for the purposes of default, 14 or 9 (where 1 point in an average skill would normally fall) or perhaps 10 (assuming Two-handed was known at 13 when he learned Broadsword)?

It's one of those places where the GM has to use their own judgement and how much bookkeeping they want to do though there is always Unusual Background to make the math work from the get go which goes down as Sir Basil improves his Broadsword skill.

So instead of putting 3 points into Unusual Background Sir Basil could put those points into actually improving his Broadsword to 15 and all that 3 point UB does is serve as a point kitty for improving only Broadsword when Sir Basil get around to it and allowing him to use shortsword as a default to Shortsword. Ie not only is there no free lunch but there is actually an lower cost-benefit to do it this way.