trance states in GURPS

[whswhs]

One of my players has a character who practices various mystical disciplines in a world where spirits are prevalent and magic is largely animistic. She has the perk Autotrance and the skill Meditation-11; the latter gives her a default of Autohypnosis-7.

What's the relationship between those three traits?

Autotrance lets you enter a trance at will by concentrating for 1 minute and making a Will roll. Meditation lets you enter a trance by concentrating for (in her case) 9 seconds, and making a skill roll. Autohypnosis lets you enter a trance by concentrating for (in her case) 13 seconds, and making a skill roll. Each of the three trances seems to have different benefits.

Since Autohypnosis and Meditation take comparable amounts of time, it doesn't seem as if either can be a shortcut to the other. Rather, they seem to be alternative applications of related techniques. It's not obvious how they relate to Autotrance. Could a roll against either be substituted for the Will roll, if it was better (not the case with this character, who has Will-13)? Would Autotrance be faster if done with one of the skills, or would the requirement for a full minute still apply?

Both Meditation and Autohypnosis grant benefits focused on oneself: finding the answers to moral dilemmas, improving concentration, increasing Will, negating pain/fatigue. None of these seems to involve the spirits. Is the enhanced ability to contact the spirits purely a product of the (perhaps deeper) trance state gained by Autohypnosis?

Does the +2 to Will from a roll vs. Autohypnosis-2 (in this case, 5!) raise Will for the purposes of Autotrance (raising it to 15 in this case)?

Autotrance gives +2 to attempts to contact spirits. But I'm not clear on how you go about contacting spirits. Is there an advantage that enables this, or a skill? Is that what the bonus applies to? Or is contacting spirits something that just happens in certain places or at certain times?

Can Autotrance be learned as a side effect of studying Meditation or Autohypnosis? Or is it purely an inborn susceptibility?

Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

[JoelSammallahti]

These traits are very vague. I wrote up some house rules & notes on their application for a couple of campaigns in which they featured.

I suppose the +2 Autotrance bonus to contacting spirits only applies to the use of the Channeling advantage as written.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by whswhs

One of my players has a character who practices various mystical disciplines in a world where spirits are prevalent and magic is largely animistic. She has the perk Autotrance and the skill Meditation-11; the latter gives her a default of Autohypnosis-7.

What's the relationship between those three traits?

Neither Autohypnosis nor Meditation let you enter a trance. They let you "enter a trance-like state" [emphasis mine]. The fact that it's merely trance-like, mimicking some of the outward appearances of a "real" trance, is presumably why both states can be entered so quickly.

Autotrance lets you enter a trance at will by concentrating for 1 minute and making a Will roll. Meditation lets you enter a trance by concentrating for (in her case) 9 seconds, and making a skill roll. Autohypnosis lets you enter a trance by concentrating for (in her case) 13 seconds, and making a skill roll. Each of the three trances seems to have different benefits.

Since Autohypnosis and Meditation take comparable amounts of time, it doesn't seem as if either can be a shortcut to the other. Rather, they seem to be alternative applications of related techniques. It's not obvious how they relate to Autotrance. Could a roll against either be substituted for the Will roll, if it was better (not the case with this character, who has Will-13)? Would Autotrance be faster if done with one of the skills, or would the requirement for a full minute still apply?

Since they only let you enter a trance-like state, I don't think either could substitute for the Will roll to enter a "real" trance. Likewise, since it's only superficially similar, you couldn't speed it up by rolling vs. Autohypnosis or Meditation. At best, I think you'd get something that resembled a trance but was somehow "wrong" when it came time to collect the bonuses.

Both Meditation (p. B207) and Autohypnosis (p. B179) grant benefits focused on oneself: finding the answers to moral dilemmas, improving concentration, increasing Will, negating pain/fatigue. None of these seems to involve the spirits. Is the enhanced ability to contact the spirits purely a product of the (perhaps deeper) trance state gained by Autohypnosis?

I think you mean Autotrance (p. B100), rather than Autohypnosis, at the tail end; and yes, that does seem to be the case.

Does the +2 to Will from a roll vs. Autohypnosis-2 (in this case, 5!) raise Will for the purposes of Autotrance (raising it to 15 in this case)?

Maybe, but, in general, I don't think so. Autohypnosis is letting you "tap reserves of inner strength" and Increase Will "applies to all attempts to resist...", so it doesn't feel like it should increase your ability to enter a trance. That said, it does say that it increases Will and doesn't specifically restrict it to resistance rolls, so you could rule that it does raise will for purposes of entering a trance as well (providing you attempt Autotrance during the one hour effectiveness of Increase Will). OTOH, Increase Will, as written, should help with the Will roll to break your trance and if a spirit tries to possess you, or you're attempting to break your already existing possession by a spirit, Increase Will should help. Both Meditation and Autohypnosis keep you in the trance-like state while they are working, so I'm dubious that you can leave that state and enter a "real" trance without losing the "trance-like state" and the benefits accruing from it.

Autotrance gives +2 to attempts to contact spirits. But I'm not clear on how you go about contacting spirits. Is there an advantage that enables this, or a skill? Is that what the bonus applies to? Or is contacting spirits something that just happens in certain places or at certain times?

Channelling (p. B41) is one advantage for communicating with spirits and it specifically calls out the Autotrance +2 bonus. Medium (p. B68) seems to be the go to advantage for communicating with spirits but they can ignore your "summons" if they wish. Spirit Empathy (p. B88) (possibly Specialized [ibid.]) should help with both communicating and contacting. However, it can also "just happen." There are numerous stories of spirits, ghosts specifically, approaching mediums uncalled for, for assistance.

Can Autotrance be learned as a side effect of studying Meditation or Autohypnosis? Or is it purely an inborn susceptibility?

You could certainly rule that Autotrance can be learned, and nothing in Autotrance implies that it's only an inborn susceptibility. Given the differences between a "real" trance and "entering a trance-like state", I'm a bit dubious about it being learnable from Autohypnosis or Meditation, rather than say, Hypnosis, but it's your game.

Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

[Daigoro]

Flavour-wise, Meditation looks like the Buddhist/Yoga technique, obviously, while Autohypnosis is the Western/Esoteric tradition.

I think Meditation is also supposed to be the more shallow but conscious and aware version, although I don't think that's supported by the rules.

Given that, I'd lean toward Autohypnosis being better for contacting spirits. I don't think a Perk should fully replace a Skill, so Autotrance should help enter the hypnotic trance. +2 for skill to calculate time, perhaps?

Furthermore, other skills that need trances, Body Control, Metabolism Control, etc, should get the +2.

I think there's a contradiction between the text in Channeling and Autotrance though:
Channeling - "To do so, you must enter a trance, achieved through one minute of concentration and a Will roll (at +2 if you have Autotrance, p. 101)."
Autotrance - "This trance gives +2 on rolls to contact spirits, etc."

They could be read as saying the same thing, but the wording on Autotrance seems like the +2 applies to a Reaction Roll or Summoning Roll of some sort. Furthermore, the Channeling text still requires the Will roll to enter the trance with Autotrance, while under the Autotrance text it's automatic.

Searching, this thread doesn't quite answer any questions, and neither does the Skill of the Week thread.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Neither Autohypnosis nor Meditation let you enter a trance. They let you "enter a trance-like state" [emphasis mine]. The fact that it's merely trance-like, mimicking some of the outward appearances of a "real" trance, is presumably why both states can be entered so quickly.

Since they only let you enter a trance-like state, I don't think either could substitute for the Will roll to enter a "real" trance. Likewise, since it's only superficially similar, you couldn't speed it up by rolling vs. Autohypnosis or Meditation. At best, I think you'd get something that resembled a trance but was somehow "wrong" when it came time to collect the bonuses.

Most of what you say looks sound, and the pointer at Channeling is especially helpful. But this particular point seems to me to overstate the differences. It's true that the two skills refer to a "trance-like state"; but Autohypnosis goes on to say, "You cannot talk or move during the initiation of the trance state," and Meditation says that "A meditative trance is required for certain rituals." So neither one seems to be drawing a hard distinction between "a trance" and "a trance-like state"; I think this is stylistic variation rather than a game mechanical distinction.

I agree that Autotrance produces a deeper trance state than the two skills. Its being a perk rather than a skill seems to be balanced if that deeper state is one that's ONLY useful for contacting spirits, not for the relatively mundane benefits granted by the skills.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I agree that Autotrance produces a deeper trance state than the two skills. Its being a perk rather than a skill seems to be balanced if that deeper state is one that's ONLY useful for contacting spirits, not for the relatively mundane benefits granted by the skills.

This is close to what my own further meditations yielded.

According to a New Scientist article I half-remember from years ago, there are two types of meditation, inner and outer, and they linked them to the perception of stimuli, such as a bell ringing.

Normally, when you perceive a new stimulus, such as a bell ringing, you pay strong attention to it. When the ringing continues, your attention attenuates and perhaps fades into the background. You could plot this as a graph with gradually diminishing spikes.

Roughly, an outer trance state meditator focuses on their perceptions of their environment. They become acutely aware of everything around them, the feel of each floor board they're sitting on, the movement of air against different patches of skin, and such. Their attention graph to the bell ringing shows spikes of constant amplitude- each peal is perceived as though it were the first.

In contrast, an inner state trance meditator focuses on their own mental processes and blanks out everything around them. Their response graph to the bell is constantly muted. This describes people being "in the zone" when they're writing or painting, if they're in a fugue state, and such.

I would postulate a third, higher state trance, when you push beyond your own mental processes and become aware of so-called higher levels of consciousness. This is where you can astral travel, project, possess people, activate psychic skills or communicate with ghosts, spirits and other trans-dimensional beings. Drugs such as LSD or DHT supposedly aid this state.

Not all GURPS skills and effects will exactly map to these, but roughly:
The outer state trance is accessed by Meditation, and is used for Zen Archery and Blind Fighting.

The inner state trance is accessed by Autohypnosis, and gives the stated bonuses for tasks requiring focused concentration. Possibly Body/Metabolism Control is governed by an inner state trance.

Autotrance might do well to be renamed then, or split up. My suggestion:
Easy Trance- you get a +2 to any skill roll to enter any form of trance state.
High Trance- you can achieve a strong separation between your astral being and your physical/mental being. +2 for contacting spirits, etc, but also possibly for astral travel and similar skills. (Oops... what does GURPS Psionic Powers do along these lines?)

Otherwise, I might say that reaching a high state trance first requires gaining an inner state, then a second roll to move on from there.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Autotrance might do well to be renamed then, or split up. My suggestion:
Easy Trance- you get a +2 to any skill roll to enter any form of trance state.
High Trance- you can achieve a strong separation between your astral being and your physical/mental being. +2 for contacting spirits, etc, but also possibly for astral travel and similar skills. (Oops... what does GURPS Psionic Powers do along these lines?)

It doesn't seem to do anything. The few mentions of "trance" suggest that it's represented as "Preparation Required, 1 minute." That kind of makes sense, as psi as such doesn't seem to involve spirits. On the other hand, I have been letting Sangmu step out of her body and walk around in the spirit world, and it makes sense that that's a manifestation of Autotrance.

[JoelSammallahti]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On the other hand, I have been letting Sangmu step out of her body and walk around in the spirit world, and it makes sense that that's a manifestation of Autotrance.

That sounds like a pretty impressive ability for a perk. But maybe it's not such a big deal in your campaign? I recall Autotrance was worth 5 points in 3rd edition.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

That sounds like a pretty impressive ability for a perk. But maybe it's not such a big deal in your campaign? I recall Autotrance was worth 5 points in 3rd edition.

Well, I hadn't pinned it down that that was a result of Autotrance. She also has Meditation-11, and I think I may have been having her roll vs. that. It's becoming more important to figure out exactly how it's happening, though.