what can stop Rapid Journey if not a No Mana zone?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The second is to return them to their starting place when conditions a,b or c are met.

M82's condition is "must spend FP to remain there". That's probably a bit old fashioned (spending HP would probably do, or nothing at all with high skill) but it seems clear that this is the condition the high-MOS uses.

In the low-MoS version in last paragraph, you aren't spending FP to remain there, but rather are spending that FP to retain a connection to your departure point to be able to try to go back to it each minute.

"Failed distraction roll" = "stops maintaining his presence".

NMZ also = "stops maintaining presence" because you can't maintain the spell.

The normal effect of being unable to maintain a spell is that the spell ENDS and then whatever happens afterward is due to forces outside that spell.

This would be why for example if you cast "Counterspell" to stop "Return Journey", it would probably just force a high-MoS user to snap back, while on a low-MoS it would strand them.

We know forces exist that re-assert people where they ought to be, because that's what happens with the Projection enhancement if you get KO'd, it doesn't require any active effort (or even mana) to return your mind to your body: the mana is what is keeping your mind separated.

Sorcery 16/17 includes a Powers adaptation of Planar Visit showing this.

Do you think sending your projection into a No Mana Zone or your body entering a No Mana Zone would, rather than snapping the projection back into the body, instead just permanently sever/kill the projector?

Projection's snapback seems like the best analogy for how Return Journey could work.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't think the low-MoS variant's function necessarily informs us on the high-MoS variant's function. They function very differently, it's like a hard cap switch rather than soft cap.

I assume that the low-MoS variant is just doing a bad job at the same thing as the high-MoS variant. This means that the snap-back is a distinct action which can be prevented. Note that teleport shield can also (explicitly) resist the snap-back effect, which strongly indicates that rapid journey is not projection, it's teleport plus a second (delayed) teleport.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Plane

Magic is able to propel things into NMZs, pretty sure you can throw fireballs into them.

Anything held together purely by magic will disperse once it enters a NMZ, a fireball is one such thing.

To me you're essentially asking a person with a cell phone to send you a SMS once they're inside the range of a cell phone jammer.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Plane

Possibly those do something to sever natural snapback forces.

Might want to reverse the prereq chain, then, while you're at it. That description makes Teleport sound harder than Rapid Journey, since it needs those snapback severing mechanisms built into it.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Your rationales for their existance are absolutely unconvincing to me.

A little more convincing to me for Timeport, at least for those metaphysics where time is plastic yet resistant to change. That kind of universe might have a tendency to expel intruders.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I assume that the low-MoS variant is just doing a bad job at the same thing as the high-MoS variant.
This means that the snap-back is a distinct action which can be prevented.

Even if we modified the low MoS version as follows:

1) No Roll Required
2) effective skill is always minimum of 3 (like reliable+10?)
3) Reflexive (doesn't require voluntary choice)

The remaining factor would also be that the spell doesn't need to remain active for it to be reflexive: you're requiring constant concentration to avoid being pulled back, and breaking that concentration sends you back.

Broken concentration OTOH doesn't send you back on the low-MoS version.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Note that teleport shield can also (explicitly) resist the snap-back effect, which strongly indicates that rapid journey is not projection, it's teleport plus a second (delayed) teleport.

Teleport shield penalizes rolls so it could prob penalize the IQ roll made on the low-MoS version but there's nothing to penalize on the high-MoS version.

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

Anything held together purely by magic will disperse once it enters a NMZ, a fireball is one such thing.

Steve Jackson seems to have shifted his stance on this:

Feb1987 : I rule that a missile spell cannot enter a NO MANA area, but is otherwise unaffected by crossing mana boundaries.

June1990 : A missile spell would continue across the boundary into a no-mana zone. No other spell or spell effect would cross into a no-mana zone.

Not sure if there was any subsequent commentary on this. Anyone know if we got any late 90s/2000s/2010s input from Kromm or similar?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

A little more convincing to me for Timeport, at least for those metaphysics where time is plastic yet resistant to change. That kind of universe might have a tendency to expel intruders.

M49 under "Control Person" says "move between the bodies freely while the spell lasts" yet presumably you will just revert back to your original body if it's interrupted while inhabiting the other one, as another example.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

Teleport shield penalizes rolls so it could prob penalize the IQ roll made on the low-MoS version but there's nothing to penalize on the high-MoS version.

From the text of the spell, Magic 82: "Teleport Shield gets to resist twice; once when the caster leaves, and once when he returns."

Which doesn't actually make any sense because teleport shield doesn't resist teleport in the first place, it penalizes it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

A little more convincing to me for Timeport, at least for those metaphysics where time is plastic yet resistant to change. That kind of universe might have a tendency to expel intruders.

If the timeporter ran into a SATAN field (Space And Time Anomaly Neutralizer) I think he'd either bounce back to his starting point immediately without entering the field or be stuck if he could enter.

Like a NMZ a SATAN field means "It's all mundane physics now".

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

From the text of the spell, Magic 82: "Teleport Shield gets to resist twice; once when the caster leaves, and once when he returns."

Which doesn't actually make any sense because teleport shield doesn't resist teleport in the first place, it penalizes it.

I think they mean like in the sense that "Magic Resistance" will "resist" a spell by penalizing it even if the target isn't choosing to resist (or can't because a critical success was rolled) in which case there's no bonus to resist applied.

[hal]

As often happens when I look at GURPS MAGIC spells (for 4e), I sometimes have to wish that the author(s) had taken a little bit more time to look over their work.

Any time I have a question regarding a spell in 4e, I will often look at it in 3e to see what changed (if anything) and then take a hard look at what I call the "Domino" effect. Minor changes in wording here or there that change a spell itself from what it used to be vs what it currently is (the spell COPY is a perfect example) can sometimes cause a disconnect for GM's used to 3e version of spells versus 4e.

So, with that in mind, my first question was "Since when can a Teleport spell deposit a person in a no-mana zone?" My next thought was to actively search through my PDF and see how many times No-Mana appears in the text and read them all. Then I started reading "Teleport" descriptions to see if a person can teleport into a no mana zone or not. Oddly enough, no where does it read that a person can teleport into a no mana zone. This is true whether in GURPS MAGIC (Classic) or GURPS MAGIC (for 4e).

So, that's Oddity #1. Oddity #2 - nothing in the rules for No-Mana Zones permit one to do anything magical (casting spells into or out of) with respect to the no mana zone.

See next post for analysis of the spell from both GURPS GRIMOIRE (Classic) and GURPS MAGIC (for 4e).

[hal]

Looking at both versions of the Rapid Journey spell - I did not something unusual. The phrase "It does not work with Plane Shift." does not exist within the original phrasing of the spell from GURPS GRIMOIRE.

So, why am I looking at that phrase? The argument brought up by Plane indicated he considered the return back as a function of a planar like travel (what is the difference between dimensional and planar?) where the intruder is ejected back to their starting point. Yet, this spell explicitly states it does not work with plane shift. As a consequence of that one phrase (absent from the original spell description in 3e version), that it was meant to mean that it is not planar in functionality or capability. It can work within the area you are currently in, or it can time port - little more.

The implications of the wording of this particular spell is that it is "similar" to teleport. Teleport for example, can NOT teleport into a pentagram if the caster has hostile intent. Does this mean that a Rapid Journey can bypass the restriction that Teleport imposes? Similiar - does not mean "identical" - which leaves wiggle room for a rules lawyer to say "but that's not what was intended by the wording! If it was meant to be identical, they would have used identical, not similar"

Now for the fun part. Sean Punch started out much like the rest of the GURPS FANS back in the days of GURPSNET. The difference being, is he analyzed the wording of the spells back in those days, gave his observations, and Steve Jackson was impressed enough to offer him first, the role as KROMM (for definitive rulings) and subsequently, as a Line Editor for GURPS. Not too shabby a way to go right? :)

Frankly? GURPS MAGIC for 4e was supposed to clarify the issues raised between what the meanings were for "duration type". Many of the spells introduced in GURPS GRIMOIRE (as it was called in the day) were, in my opinion, BADLY playtested and the bastard child of one author, replaced by another author, and undergoing some odd scheduling through its development (if I'm recalling correctly). The other thing to remember is that objects had more hit points (damage points) under 3e than they did in 4e - yet the spells do precisely the same damages they did in 3e version.

That's my take on it - and one that I largely suspect is influenced by exposure to GURPS 3e rules as they evolved from 2nd edition right up to 3rd edition revised. Being able to teleport to a no mana zone for Rapid Journey is an outlier - not standard. Using it to claim that one can teleport into a no mana region is not what went before GURPS GRIMOIRE, and was sadly maintained in GURPS MAGIC for 4e.