Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-22-2015, 09:07 PM   #1
acrosome
 
acrosome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colorado Springs
Default Weapon Adaptation [MA]

I have a question on how techniques work with weapon adaptation. Take Glaive Fighting (MA187) as an example, because the idea of combining Staff skill with a duelling bill is awesome.

Let's say I want to be frugal with points, and I want to favor the Staff skill awesomeness, so I only put one point into Polearm but buff Staff really high. Then I take Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff).

But I also really like Hook and Sweep attacks. If I have Hook (Polearm) because it's included in the Glaive Fighting style, but I'm mostly using Staff skill to fight with the bill per Weapon Adaptation, do I base by Hook attack off Polearm skill or off of Staff skill? I assume Polearm. (I know, I know, I could just buy Hook (Staff). But that seems less true to the style, or something...)

I could Style Adaptation (Polearm and Quarterstaff), but this still doesn't get me Hook (Staff). Or does Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff) allow me to buy Hook (Staff)? Or does Style Adaptation (Polearm and Quarterstaff) allow it?

AND THEN, if I do have Hook (Staff), can I use it to hook with the bill???

Last edited by acrosome; 06-22-2015 at 09:21 PM.
acrosome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2015, 10:58 PM   #2
Phantasm
 
Phantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the road again...
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

The relevant text of the Perk as relayed in Power-Ups 2: Perks reads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 8
This lets you wield the weapons covered by one weapon skill using a different skill and its techniques, with all of the benefits and drawbacks of that skill....
What I get from this is that you can use it to wield a Glaive as if it was a Quarterstaff, complete with the +2 to Staff Parry even using the blade, but it doesn't let you use the Hook ability with the Staff skill.

What you want for Hook is the Skill Adaptation Perk, the relevant part of which reads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 17
You can learn techniques that don’t default to a skill as if they did, with the usual default penalties (if a technique’s penalties vary by controlling skill, use the easiest).
This help?


And don't feel bad; whenever I'm making these type characters I always have to double-check the differences between Weapon Adaptation, Style Adaptation, Skill Adaptation, and Technique Mastery.
__________________
"But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!"

The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
Phantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2015, 11:06 PM   #3
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
I have a question on how techniques work with weapon adaptation. Take Glaive Fighting (MA187) as an example, because the idea of combining Staff skill with a duelling bill is awesome.
I find Weapon Adaptation is much clarified by thinking of it as adding a line to the Weapon Table under the skill you are extending. This line may happen to be copied from someplace else on the table, but it doesn't have to be, you could take a Weapon Adaptation for something that doesn't have any weapon statistics to begin with (i.e. the GM would need to make some up) or they could change as much as the GM wanted (for example adding or removing fencing parries is something most GMs do, which is changing the stat line even if they don't think of it that way). It really doesn't matter what the skill it was originally listed under allowed, you can think of it as a totally unrelated weapon that just coincidentally has the same name and appearance if you wanted.

Quote:
But I also really like Hook and Sweep attacks. If I have Hook (Polearm) because it's included in the Glaive Fighting style, but I'm mostly using Staff skill to fight with the bill per Weapon Adaptation, do I base by Hook attack off Polearm skill or off of Staff skill? I assume Polearm. (I know, I know, I could just buy Hook (Staff). But that seems less true to the style, or something...)
The physical weapon you are using does not matter. You use Hook (Staff) with your Staff skill or Hook (Polearm) with your Polearm skill. Note that if you were using your Bill with Staff skill you may not be able to your Hook (Polearm) technique at all unless you re-ready your weapon, or have a perk that allows you to shift between skills without it like Form or Grip Mastery.

Quote:
Or does Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff) allow me to buy Hook (Staff)?
Nothing obvious prevents you from buying Hook (Staff) with nothing but Staff skill. It's not very useful and finding an instructor may be hard, but you do get a default (Staff-5) and could presumably practice it on your own if you really wanted.

If your campaign is restricting what techniques you are allowed to improve (the optional rule on Martial Arts p.141), then maybe not. The perks for getting around that are Style and Technique Adaptation. Or Rules Exemption, there are techniques this rule would seem to forbid anyone from ever learning unless the GM invents some new styles or allows an exemption some other way. Honestly this rule is confusingly implemented, it really needed to be made a lot more prominent and the rules for getting around it more clearly marked as irrelevant if you weren't using it.

Quote:
AND THEN, if I do have Hook (Staff), can I use it to hook with the bill???
Any time you are wielding it with the Staff skill, certainly.
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2015, 11:12 AM   #4
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

GURPS Martial Arts, p. 74: "You can learn [Hook] for any Melee Weapon skill, but you’ll need a suitable weapon to use it."

GURPS Martial Arts, p. 214 (or GURPS Low-Tech Companion 2, p. 14): "Any swung weapon [...] can have a small hook to permit use of the Hook technique."

A quarterstaff is a swung weapon, so it can have a hook for +$25 and negligible weight. If you want to go nuts and give it a full-on bill head for +$90 ($100 for dueling bill minus $10 for quarterstaff) and +2 lbs. (6 lbs. for dueling bill minus 4 lbs. for quarterstaff), then you've gone above and beyond the call of duty. Go ahead and learn Hook (Staff) to wield it.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2015, 08:30 PM   #5
acrosome
 
acrosome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colorado Springs
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

My bad- I get that Hook (Staff) is a valid technique. What I'm asking about is more about justifying buying it, and specifically in the setting of these defined MA styles. But the discussion so far has indeed ruled some things out for me, and I have refined my question. To whit:

Hook (Polearm) is a listed technique for the Glaive Fighting style. There is no Hook (Staff) listed under the Quarterstaff style. So if I mix 'em up with Style Adaptation (Glaive Fighting and Quarterstff) does that "justify" allowing the Hook (Staff) technique? So that I can used my highly buffed Staff skill to do the, er, hooking...

See what I've come to? I'm hooking, now.

I'm one of those purists who likes to invent a neat character story and then build a character to fit it, as opposed to just developing Roland the Optimized Knight, per se. In this case, a character who was low class and grew up learning "peasant weapons" like staff, but was drafted into an army and adapted those skills to his bill. (I adore peasant weapons for some reason.) I know that I can just damned well buy Hook (Staff) if I really want to, but I'm trying to stay true to these styles somehow, if I can. And I'm quite willing to "waste" the points on these various Adaptations and a Polearm skill that I'll never use to do it.

Did that make any sense? I'm not the most eloquent at explaining myself.

Last edited by acrosome; 06-23-2015 at 08:57 PM.
acrosome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2015, 09:01 PM   #6
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
Hook (Polearm) is a listed technique for the Glaive Fighting style. There is no Hook (Staff) listed under the Quarterstaff style. So if I mix 'em up with Style Adaptation (Glaive Fighting and Quarterstff) does that "justify" allowing the Hook (Staff) technique? So that I can used my highly buffed Staff skill to do the, er, hooking...
That's more or less what Style Adaptation is for. You spend one of your style perks from Quarterstaff Style on Style Adaptation (Glaive Fighting) and you can learn any technique listed under Glaive Fighting for use with Staff. Mind you the way the rule is written you could buy Style Adaptation (Longsword Fighting) which includes Hook (Two Handed Axe/Mace), and that would also let you buy up Hook (Staff) which you could then use with your Weapon Adapted Bill, it just wouldn't lend itself to a very logical story.

The Style Adaption perk is another one that's not well worded. Taking it lets you add whatever techniques to a style as the GM wants. There's no actual need to reference another style at all, as witnessed by the rules legality of Style Adaptation (All), which turns off the limiting rule entirely for this style.
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2015, 09:34 PM   #7
acrosome
 
acrosome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colorado Springs
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

So... I don't actually need to buy the Glaive Fighting style and waste a point in Polearm skill? I just need to buff up my Quarterstaff style, and then buy Style Adaptation (Quarterstaff to Glaive Fighting) and Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff)? This will justify buying the Hook (Staff) technique?

Interesting. A couple of points saved, if nothing else...

So this is valid, and lets me use the buffed Staff skill with a bill?:

Style Familiarity (Quarterstaff)
Style Adaptation (Quarterstaff to Glaive Fighting)
Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff)
Grip Mastery (Staff)
Staff- at some ridiculous level
Hook (Staff)- at whatever level
Various other techniques from both Quarterstaff and Glaive Fighting styles
Note: SInce that is two non-style perks I need 40 points in Quarterstaff style to justify them, per MA p.49. So, just to pull this off at all, this character has to be Death incarnate with a stick in his hand...

Or do I need Style Familiarity (Glaive Fighting) and Wrestling, too? (Frankly, I'm going to get Wrestling anyway, but for the sake of argument?) Frankly, that would seem silly in the setting of Style Adaptation (All), because then it would require Style Familiarity for every known style! So, I assume that it is not required. After all, I'm still fighting "like a quarterstaff guy," albeit with a bill.

Last edited by acrosome; 06-23-2015 at 09:42 PM.
acrosome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2015, 10:01 PM   #8
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
So... I don't actually need to buy the Glaive Fighting style and waste a point in Polearm skill? I just need to buff up my Quarterstaff style, and then buy Style Adaptation (Quarterstaff to Glaive Fighting) and Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff)? This will justify buying the Hook (Staff) technique?

Interesting. A couple of points saved, if nothing else...

So this is valid, and lets me use the buffed Staff skill with a bill?:

Style Familiarity (Quarterstaff)
Style Adaptation (Quarterstaff to Glaive Fighting)
Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff)
Grip Mastery (Staff)
Staff- at some ridiculous level
Hook (Staff)- at whatever level
Various other techniques from both Quarterstaff and Glaive Fighting styles
Note: SInce that is two non-style perks I need 40 points in Quarterstaff style to justify them, per MA p.49.
Looks fine to me. Although you need 40 points in combat skills to qualify for two non-style perks by the perk limit rules, they don't need to be in Staff.

You need 10 points in Staff to get the Grip Mastery style perk, but the other 30 can be in anything. Indeed you could in principle you could do this with zero points in Staff (OK, 1 point in Staff - you need it to qualify for the Style Familiarity (Quarterstaff), since its a primary skill of the style) and 60 in, say, Crossbow to pay for 3 non-style perks. It's just another one of those places the perk limit rules don't make a lot of sense.
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2015, 10:02 PM   #9
acrosome
 
acrosome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Colorado Springs
Default Re: Weapon Adaptation [MA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Looks fine to me. Although you need 40 points in combat skills to qualify for two non-style perks by the perk limit rules, they don't need to be in Staff.

You need 10 points in Staff to get the Grip Mastery style perk, but the other 30 can be in anything. Indeed you could in principle you could do this with zero points in Staff (OK, 1 point in Staff - you need it to qualify for the Style Familiarity (Quarterstaff), since its a primary skill of the style) and 60 in, say, Crossbow to pay for 3 non-style perks. It's just another one of those places the perk limit rules don't make a lot of sense.
And acrosome was enlightened...
acrosome is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.