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Old 05-04-2016, 09:35 PM   #11
Azure Angel
 
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Nope, Cosmic things say that even Hardened doesn't protect (such as grav guns in Ultra-Tech). A 50% Cosmic will work for the same price as Malediction-Proof.
So Hardened doesn't protect against Cosmic (Irresistible Attack)? I thought you only need the 50% Cosmic (Countermeasures and Defenses) against Cosmic Afflictions ignoring DR bonuses to HT rolls…
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
Nope, Cosmic things say that even Hardened doesn't protect (such as grav guns in Ultra-Tech).
Cosmic (Irresistible Attack) does not mention Hardened, and specifies "ignores DR". "Ignores DR" is specifically a step on the levels of protection Hardened interacts with. Therefore, Hardened moves "Ignores DR" to 100->10->5->3->2->1 depending on how many levels you have. This applies to any advantage that specifies that it ignores DR and does not specifically say Hardened doesn't apply; 6 levels of Hardened means your DR works against absolutely anything.
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Old 05-05-2016, 02:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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Cosmic (Irresistible Attack) does not mention Hardened, and specifies "ignores DR". "Ignores DR" is specifically a step on the levels of protection Hardened interacts with. Therefore, Hardened moves "Ignores DR" to 100->10->5->3->2->1 depending on how many levels you have. This applies to any advantage that specifies that it ignores DR and does not specifically say Hardened doesn't apply; 6 levels of Hardened means your DR works against absolutely anything.
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Each level of Hardened reduces the armor divisor of an attack by one step.
I think the keyword there is armor divisor, it's not Penetration Modifier. As far as I've understood it, Hardened only works to block against Armour Divisor and only Armour Divisor. Malediction, Cosmic (Irresistible Attack), Sense Based and other Penetration Modifiers are not Armor Divisors.

Since none of the Penetration Modifiers in the base book (nor any book that I know of) call out Hardened specifically, by your logic, any attack with Sense Based would be blocked by your DR (Hardened 6) and... that fails to make any sense whatsoever.

Though the Character Book doesn't give rules for Ignores DR levels of Armour Divisor, so I can see where your interpretation comes from. I was sure I saw rules in some book, expanding Armour Divisor to (100) and Ignores DR, but I can't seem to find them now that I'm looking for em.
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Old 05-05-2016, 03:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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Originally Posted by Leynok View Post
I think the keyword there is armor divisor, it's not Penetration Modifier. As far as I've understood it, Hardened only works to block against Armour Divisor and only Armour Divisor. Malediction, Cosmic (Irresistible Attack), Sense Based and other Penetration Modifiers are not Armor Divisors.

Since none of the Penetration Modifiers in the base book (nor any book that I know of) call out Hardened specifically, by your logic, any attack with Sense Based would be blocked by your DR (Hardened 6) and... that fails to make any sense whatsoever.

Though the Character Book doesn't give rules for Ignores DR levels of Armour Divisor, so I can see where your interpretation comes from. I was sure I saw rules in some book, expanding Armour Divisor to (100) and Ignores DR, but I can't seem to find them now that I'm looking for em.
I think one of the Imbuements in Power Up: Imbuements can ignore DR without being Cosmic.

I thought all instances of the phrase "ignore DR" would be blocked by Hardened DR, though I understand your logic with regards to Sense-Based. The same logic applies to Blood Agent, Contact Agent and Respiratory Agent when applied to Area Effect or Cone, and these have their own counters (Doesn't Breathe and Sealed). But what of simple damage? Since Cosmic (Defenses and Countermeasures), specifically says that it defeats Cosmic attacks only, does it means that a Cosmic-enhanced DR won't protect against "mundane" ignore DR (and end up having to buy Hardened 6 ON TOP of Cosmic)? Seems a little redundant to me…
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Old 05-05-2016, 04:41 AM   #15
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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Originally Posted by Azure Angel View Post
I think one of the Imbuements in Power Up: Imbuements can ignore DR without being Cosmic.

I thought all instances of the phrase "ignore DR" would be blocked by Hardened DR, though I understand your logic with regards to Sense-Based. The same logic applies to Blood Agent, Contact Agent and Respiratory Agent when applied to Area Effect or Cone, and these have their own counters (Doesn't Breathe and Sealed). But what of simple damage?
It seems quite clear to me. Hardened simply exists to prevent Armor Divisors. It's what it is specifically called out to do in it's description, and there are many "Ignores DR" type of Penetration Modifiers that don't say "Even gets past Hardened DR", likewise Cosmic (Irresistible Attack) doesn't say anything about being stopped by it either, so even for flat damage, I believe Hardened isn't going to stop anything but Armour Divisor.
Maledictions seem to work like mental attacks (making it a quick contest of Will similar to other forms of mental intrusion like Mind Control, Possession, Mind Reading, etc.) and they are said to be used to represent creating a Spell-like Effect with Advantages, and if you're attacking their mind directly, that would make them another type of Damage that Hardened DR wouldn't make sense to block (I could see allowing Mind Shield adding to the roll or substituting the will roll for Mind Block, but I can't find any RAW support for that). And Cosmic (Irresistible Attack) is usually reserved for God-like entities, of course you're going to need something equally god-like to defend against them.

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Originally Posted by Azure Angel View Post
Since Cosmic (Defenses and Countermeasures), specifically says that it defeats Cosmic attacks only, does it means that a Cosmic-enhanced DR won't protect against "mundane" ignore DR (and end up having to buy Hardened 6 ON TOP of Cosmic)? Seems a little redundant to me…
That has been my understanding, yes, that you need both hardened and Cosmic Defence to be able to be sure to block against both Cosmic and powerful Armor Divisors. It's redundant yes, and honestly I already think that DR is priced to expensive compared to Innate Attack, so what you end up with is around 13-14 points per 1 point of damage that can never bypassed ever... Unless they use any other of the Penetration modifiers... I'm just saying the way I believe it works by RAW, not how I think it should be.

The way I see it we're working with different scales.
Each Penetration Modifier is bound by it's own limits and specific counters, with the only exception I can see being Malediction, which is again, why I apply Mind Shield and similar counters to it.
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

Kromm quote:
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
From p. B47:
Hardened: Each level of Hardened reduces the armor divisor of an attack by one step. These steps are, in order: "ignores DR," 100, 10, 5, 3, 2, and 1 (no divisor). +20% per level.
To paraphrase Armor Divisor, p. B102:
Armor Divisor . . . Modifier
(2) . . . +50%
(3) . . . +100%
(5) . . . +150%
(10) . . . +200%
Note how the modifiers are priced at +50% per canonical step. The next steps would logically be (100) for +250% and "ignores DR" for +300%.

Finally, to precis Cosmic, p. B103:
Irresistible attack. Your attack does negate the target's protection; e.g., an Innate Attack that ignores DR. +300%.
That's simply an explicit statement of the missing final step of Armor Divisor.

When Powers says, "DR with Cosmic subtracts from 'irresistible' attacks with Cosmic," it means exactly what it says. DR 100 with the +50% version of Cosmic counts as DR 100 vs. an attack with the +300% version of Cosmic. Against an attack with a (10) divisor, that Cosmic DR acts as DR 10, because the defensive +50% version of Cosmic isn't Hardened, and does nothing againt other armor divisors. Somebody with DR 100 (Hardened 1, +20%) gets DR 1 vs. an attack with the +300% version of Cosmic, because he shifts "ignores DR" to (100), while he gets DR 20 vs. an attack with a (10) divisor, because he shifts (10) to (5).

If you want an attack that not only ignores DR but also ignores Hardened, then add another +50% to your +300%.
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
Kromm quote:
Thank you, I wasn't aware that Powers actually brought that up. Though I'm personally torn at the result. It's much more affordable this way and better handled, but I'm not so fond of the idea that something non-cosmic can counter a cosmic. I guess in my games I'll just have to start charging +350% for Cosmic, and just add in two more levels of Armour Divisor for (100) and (Ignores DR).
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Old 05-05-2016, 06:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

Sorcery says specifically that Magic Resistance help against spells which allow a Resistance Roll, which includes certain spells that are built with Malediction. So Magic Resistance helps against magic Maledictions at least. Presumably Static (Magic) also helps against magic Maledictions, and Psionic Resistance and Mind Shield helps against Maledictions with the psionic modifier, etc.

DR helping against Malediction? I'd eyeball it at +100%. That gives an extra cost of 5 points/level which works well with Improved Magic Resistance.
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Old 05-05-2016, 11:50 AM   #19
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

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DR helping against Malediction? I'd eyeball it at +100%. That gives an extra cost of 5 points/level which works well with Improved Magic Resistance.
Malediction-Proof DR already exists. It has a cost of either +0% or +50%.
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Old 05-05-2016, 02:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Malediction vs. Resistant

Where can I find this good cigar? (ancient Swedish joke)
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