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Old 08-10-2015, 09:46 AM   #1
Varyon
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Default [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

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Sure. Replace Sorcerous Empowerment with Ritual Adept + levels of Magery (Ritual Path), and use RPM for "improvised magic" instead of sorcery. That way you have fast, easy "sorcery evocations" and slow, versatile "RPM rituals."
This bit over in the release thread for GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery intrigued me, but I'd like to take it a step further. One issue with it is that Powers (including Sorcery) function differently from RPM Rituals - you can't "hold" a Sorcery Fireball, or deliver it with a punch rather than by flinging it, but you can do both of those things with an RPM Fireball. Another issue is that the methods build the spells differently - a 3d Sorcery Fireball is Innate Attack 3d (Burning, Sorcery -15%) [13], while a 3d RPM Fireball is Greater Create Energy (6) + External Damage 3d Burning (0) = 18 energy (6x3).

I'd prefer to have unity in build (so that each ritual doesn't run the risk of needing to be built twice) and effect. I personally prefer the way RPM rituals are built and work to a Powers approach, although I see the need to maintain the Ritual component of the Sorcery modifier (the bit about gestures, words, and/or FP cost) to prevent Known Rituals from being superpowers.

Ideally, I'd like to have an energy cost to character points conversion factor. I realize no factor is going to be perfect - Powers and Rituals are simply built too differently. For example, we see above that with a 3d fireball, (Energy/1.4) or so will give us an appropriate character point cost. If we bumped this up to 6d, the Sorcery build is [26] and the RPM build is 30 energy - (Energy/1.15) would be a more appropriate conversion factor here. On the other hand, No-Smell (Sorcery 13) is worth [63], but building it under RPM is either 60 energy or 201 energy, depending on if the GM requires the Altered Traits, or if Greater Destroy Matter alone (along with Subject Weight, Range, and Duration) is sufficient to remove scent.

I'm personally leaning toward using (Energy/2) to determine character point cost, primarily because it makes the math extremely easy - divide energy by 10 to determine cost as an Alternate Ability. What do others think?
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Old 08-10-2015, 02:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

I wanted to post something very similar. I think RPM's casting system is waaaay better than Sorcery's, but the latter is much better at spell design, since it relies on a more robust set of rules.

So I'll anxiously wait for people's input. I'm actually surprised that Ghostdancer hasn't shown up yet. He's usually very quick at answering RPM threads.
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Old 08-10-2015, 02:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

I'm pretty sure Ghostdancer is a set of identical triplet authors with how much O.C. he writes.
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Old 08-10-2015, 02:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

Also, something just came to mind. If you want to maintain some sort of Greater/Lesser Effect distinction, you could use different rates to convert the cost. Something like: if the spell deals up to 3d external damage, its energy cost is [point cost/2], if it deals more damage than that, it becomes [point cost].
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Old 08-10-2015, 07:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This bit over in the release thread for GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery intrigued me, but I'd like to take it a step further. One issue with it is that Powers (including Sorcery) function differently from RPM Rituals - you can't "hold" a Sorcery Fireball, or deliver it with a punch rather than by flinging it, but you can do both of those things with an RPM Fireball. Another issue is that the methods build the spells differently - a 3d Sorcery Fireball is Innate Attack 3d (Burning, Sorcery -15%) [13], while a 3d RPM Fireball is Greater Create Energy (6) + External Damage 3d Burning (0) = 18 energy (6x3).

I'd prefer to have unity in build (so that each ritual doesn't run the risk of needing to be built twice) and effect. I personally prefer the way RPM rituals are built and work to a Powers approach, although I see the need to maintain the Ritual component of the Sorcery modifier (the bit about gestures, words, and/or FP cost) to prevent Known Rituals from being superpowers.

Ideally, I'd like to have an energy cost to character points conversion factor. I realize no factor is going to be perfect - Powers and Rituals are simply built too differently. For example, we see above that with a 3d fireball, (Energy/1.4) or so will give us an appropriate character point cost. If we bumped this up to 6d, the Sorcery build is [26] and the RPM build is 30 energy - (Energy/1.15) would be a more appropriate conversion factor here. On the other hand, No-Smell (Sorcery 13) is worth [63], but building it under RPM is either 60 energy or 201 energy, depending on if the GM requires the Altered Traits, or if Greater Destroy Matter alone (along with Subject Weight, Range, and Duration) is sufficient to remove scent.

I'm personally leaning toward using (Energy/2) to determine character point cost, primarily because it makes the math extremely easy - divide energy by 10 to determine cost as an Alternate Ability. What do others think?
I've actually done all the work for you in Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic (pp. 12-13). Simply use the the rules for Ritual Powers to figure out the cost and go from there.

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I'm actually surprised that Ghostdancer hasn't shown up yet. He's usually very quick at answering RPM threads.
It's been a hard couple of weeks, I've slept about 67 hours in the last 14 (going on 15 days). Writing has been productive, but I'm slipping into madness. I finally got nearly 8 hours of sleep last night so I'm almost back to par.

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I'm pretty sure Ghostdancer is a set of identical triplet authors with how much O.C. he writes.
We aren't. I mean, I'm not.
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Old 08-11-2015, 07:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

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Also, something just came to mind. If you want to maintain some sort of Greater/Lesser Effect distinction, you could use different rates to convert the cost. Something like: if the spell deals up to 3d external damage, its energy cost is [point cost/2], if it deals more damage than that, it becomes [point cost].
My intention is to handle it from the opposite direction, converting from energy to character point cost, in which case the Greater/Lesser Effect bit is already built in. If you wanted to go from the opposite direction, the points -> energy conversion should always be the same, but boosting the cost of high levels (that is, beyond Lesser) of effect on the points side may be appropriate.

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I've actually done all the work for you in Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic (pp. 12-13). Simply use the the rules for Ritual Powers to figure out the cost and go from there.
That version (which I hadn't noticed before, so thanks for pointing it out) is essentially the same as the RPM+Sorcery system I quoted PK on, with some minor nuances added in. While it's a solid system, it's not what I'm looking for, as it still requires the ritual be built twice, in two different ways - as an RPM Ritual, and as a Power. The Power still functions differently from a Ritual - the example Fireball doesn't have the option of being delivered via touch. I want something where you can build the ritual once, as an RPM Ritual, and allow the character to pay points to make it an innate part of themselves rather than a ritual they have to gather energy for. It's meant to continue functioning exactly as an RPM Ritual.

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We aren't. I mean, I'm not.
Pah, the meatbags should know by now that you're an AI designed for churning out Pyramid articles.

Last edited by Varyon; 08-11-2015 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

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While it's a solid system, it's not what I'm looking for, as it still requires the ritual be built twice, in two different ways - as an RPM Ritual, and as a Power. The Power still functions differently from a Ritual - the example Fireball doesn't have the option of being delivered via touch. I want something where you can build the ritual once, as an RPM Ritual, and allow the character to pay points to make it an innate part of themselves rather than a ritual they have to gather energy for.
Unfortunately, there's really no direct conversion between RPM energy and the GURPS advantage system. So if you really want to "convert" between the two like that, you've got to do the following:
1. Accept that what you're doing is going to be 100% fiat.

2. Decide which of the two is your standard. Are you going to build every spell as an RPM ritual, or are you going to build every spell as a sorcery ability?

3. Come up with some ratio between the two that seems to produce fairly sane results.

4. Playtest, playtest, playtest, and keep tweaking step 3's ratio -- or come up with a more complex formula ("full cost = 11 + (energy/8.4)") -- until you get the results you want.
I'm afraid that I don't have any specific answers for you past step 1.
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Old 08-11-2015, 06:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

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Pah, the meatbags should know by now that you're an AI designed for churning out Pyramid articles.
And soon...books. Sooo many books. As many as I can as much as I can. :-)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That version (which I hadn't noticed before, so thanks for pointing it out) is essentially the same as the RPM+Sorcery system I quoted PK on, with some minor nuances added in. While it's a solid system, it's not what I'm looking for, as it still requires the ritual be built twice, in two different ways - as an RPM Ritual, and as a Power. The Power still functions differently from a Ritual - the example Fireball doesn't have the option of being delivered via touch. I want something where you can build the ritual once, as an RPM Ritual, and allow the character to pay points to make it an innate part of themselves rather than a ritual they have to gather energy for. It's meant to continue functioning exactly as an RPM Ritual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
Unfortunately, there's really no direct conversion between RPM energy and the GURPS advantage system. So if you really want to "convert" between the two like that, you've got to do the following:
1. Accept that what you're doing is going to be 100% fiat.

2. Decide which of the two is your standard. Are you going to build every spell as an RPM ritual, or are you going to build every spell as a sorcery ability?

3. Come up with some ratio between the two that seems to produce fairly sane results.

4. Playtest, playtest, playtest, and keep tweaking step 3's ratio -- or come up with a more complex formula ("full cost = 11 + (energy/8.4)") -- until you get the results you want.
I'm afraid that I don't have any specific answers for you past step 1.
I'm afraid that PK has the right of it here. It's like trying to turn fruit juice back into fruit. It's easily done one way (Sorcery > RPM), but not so much the other (RPM > Sorcery). Good luck. :-)
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

So... What about the points->energy conversion ratio? Any guesses as to what would be a reasonable number?

Last edited by Qhaysh; 08-11-2015 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems

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So... What about the points->energy conversion ratio? Any guesses as to what would be a reasonable number?
Well, I would start with Energy Reserve X (One Ritual Only, -80%) [X] numbers. You just need some other way of regenerating your Energy Reserve really freaking fast or upping the cost of the Sorcery-Ritual-Advantage in order to make up for that. But, anyway, my point is that I would start there.
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