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Old 10-15-2013, 12:21 PM   #31
Nosforontu
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I've always played it like this -even when I was using basic magic. Otherwise...it just doesn't make sense.
I never did and players were still taking the advantage because certain Magic switches were turned on or off based on the local mana level. Normal magic items are by raw turned off in low mana zones and you have to purchase the more expensive skill 20 items for use in low mana, and even the best raw magic items were turned off in no mana zones. The advantage essentially turned that switch off for the player.

Additionally casters could usually replinish their mana levels every turn with Mana Enhancer level 2 (essentially Extreme Regeneration Fatigue) and got a +5 to their skill level which would reduce the fatigue cost of a spell by -1 for personal buff spells. Yeah failures/crit failures were nastier but they could generally count on it not being TPK nasty as much as a challenge moment for most games.

For RPM Mana Enhancer is a straight +1 to your energy accumulation rolls and no other campaign switches are turned on or off, and thus has to be compared to other ways to purchase just a straight conditional +1 to skill.



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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
If you are asking me if that' how it should be done with RPM? Yeah, I think it fits just fine (unless PK would like to chime in here). It works. I've proven that it works with hours of game play. Nothing got broken.
Its not that I think it would be broken, but rather or not the player was getting full value from the 20 points compared to spending it any other way to get that +1 Place of Power bump to his skill levels in RPM. Ruling that it essentially gets the 1 yard radius enhancement rather than the more restrictive [Personal] area of effect I think goes a long way to alleviating my personal concerns when looking at the games math.

What I never wanted was the price of mana enhancer RPM turning into rpms version of the Regrowth advantage which was incorrectly priced at 40 points and later largely replaced with the Unbreakable Bones advantage for 15 points. Or the Gunslinger advantage which got a text expansion in a later booklet to make the 25 point investment a better deal than it was initially, once players started to really dissect the gunslinger advantages math on the forums.


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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
More than that! The difference between a Lesser and Greater effect is triple the cost. If I were pricing a hypthetical advantage that did this I would say....120 points a level. At minimum. Maybe 150. I say 120 points because Control (Magic) is worth 40 points a level and I'd say about 3 levels are needed to reduce the cost from x3 to x1. So something that out, maybe 40 points a level as a advantage reducing the cost of a Greater effects multiplier by 1. So a ritual with 2 Greater effects cast by someone with this one level of this advantage would cost x4, not x5.
Interesting, and something I think I am going to want to look into. Definately was not thinking about the Control or Create advantages for RPM prior to this conversation :)


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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
And I'm not truly to bully you! Or anyone else for that matter, I just want people to have fun playing games. And if I can help with that...well, it makes me happy. Keep in mind that that halving applies to all Limitations on Magery.
Definately did not feel bullied nor meant to imply such in my comments. As far as limitations on magery I am roughly cosidering halve value in my campaign or full value of the limitation if charms have to obey the magery limitation as well.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I've always used it as "If you touch a mana enhancer and you get the bonus."
To the best of my recollection I never did at my table but we havent had a mana enhancer character/campaign that it would make sense in for a number of years. Probably in part becaue we have played a number of different systems over the years and the last few fantasy games I have run in gurps I have wanted to feature Powers more than Magic in the games.

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That makes sense.
Rarely and with copious amounts of coffee I occassionaly make sense...not with any great frequency mind you but on occassion ;)
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:13 PM   #32
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
I never did and players were still taking the advantage because certain Magic switches were turned on or off based on the local mana level. Normal magic items are by raw turned off in low mana zones and you have to purchase the more expensive skill 20 items for use in low mana, and even the best raw magic items were turned off in no mana zones. The advantage essentially turned that switch off for the player.
So it was more a Unusual Background than a regular advantage...well that could explain your experience right there.

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Additionally casters could usually replinish their mana levels every turn with Mana Enhancer level 2 (essentially Extreme Regeneration Fatigue) and got a +5 to their skill level which would reduce the fatigue cost of a spell by -1 for personal buff spells. Yeah failures/crit failures were nastier but they could generally count on it not being TPK nasty as much as a challenge moment for most games.
Yeah.


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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
For RPM Mana Enhancer is a straight +1 to your energy accumulation rolls and no other campaign switches are turned on or off, and thus has to be compared to other ways to purchase just a straight conditional +1 to skill.
Except that it's something that can be shared. Also, it's stackable with regular skill so if you're GM enforces limits, this lets you ignore them.


[QUOTE=Nosforontu;1662498]Its not that I think it would be broken, but rather or not the player was getting full value from the 20 points compared to spending it any other way to get that +1 Place of Power bump to his skill levels in RPM. Ruling that it essentially gets the 1 yard radius enhancement rather than the more restrictive [Personal] area of effect I think goes a long way to alleviating my personal concerns when looking at the games math.

That could work.

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
What I never wanted was the price of mana enhancer RPM turning into rpms version of the Regrowth advantage which was incorrectly priced at 40 points and later largely replaced with the Unbreakable Bones advantage for 15 points. Or the Gunslinger advantage which got a text expansion in a later booklet to make the 25 point investment a better deal than it was initially, once players started to really dissect the gunslinger advantages math on the forums.
20 points a level for a +1 Place of Power that's mobile (which most Places of Power aren't) is a helluva deal.


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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Interesting, and something I think I am going to want to look into. Definately was not thinking about the Control or Create advantages for RPM prior to this conversation :)
I happily admit that while I've toyed with it a bit, Refplace was the one who made me think about it more than I initially had.


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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Definately did not feel bullied nor meant to imply such in my comments. As far as limitations on magery I am roughly cosidering halve value in my campaign or full value of the limitation if charms have to obey the magery limitation as well.
Charms would have to obey the limitation regardless because you're the one being limited to begin with and you're creating it.


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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
To the best of my recollection I never did at my table but we havent had a mana enhancer character/campaign that it would make sense in for a number of years. Probably in part becaue we have played a number of different systems over the years and the last few fantasy games I have run in gurps I have wanted to feature Powers more than Magic in the games.
Ahh, yeah. Magic as powers is fun, but it gets kind of boring (to my players at least).


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Rarely and with copious amounts of coffee I occassionaly make sense...not with any great frequency mind you but on occassion ;)
:-) I'm not considered sapeitn (IQ 6+) till I've had my first cup at least.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #33
Nosforontu
 
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
So it was more a Unusual Background than a regular advantage...well that could explain your experience right there.
Looking back at it, I would say yeah Mana Enhancer was used either more as as an unusual background character element or for those characters who were paranoid about their concept being nerfed in gurps. Essentially warriors who felt they were equipment dependent or casters who did not want to be worthless in a no mana/low mana zone. Especially towards the begining of 4e when we were still somewhat used to 3Es cap of level 3 magery.

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Except that it's something that can be shared. Also, it's stackable with regular skill so if you're GM enforces limits, this lets you ignore them.
Yep and if the GM is enforcing limits the bonus does hold greater value, of course part of the reason for this conversation was that we both are quibbling a bit on just how easy the default mana enhancer advantage is to share ;)

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I happily admit that while I've toyed with it a bit, Refplace was the one who made me think about it more than I initially had.
In that case thanks Refplace as well, I have been looking into them for a Fatespinner powers build idea, but hadn't stetched the idea to RPM as well.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Charms would have to obey the limitation regardless because you're the one being limited to begin with and you're creating it.
I understand they would have the limitation when creating the charm but would they also have that limitiation once activated as well? For example if a RPM caster had night only he could obviously only create a charm at night but are you saying that he could only activate previously created charms at night as well?


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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Ahh, yeah. Magic as powers is fun, but it gets kind of boring (to my players at least).
It was less magic as powers but more a case of cool supernatural power sets are the rule of thumb for this game instead of actual magic, except for the Avatar Last airbender inspired Elemental Wizards who were a campaign side note.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:15 PM   #34
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Looking back at it, I would say yeah Mana Enhancer was used either more as as an unusual background character element or for those characters who were paranoid about their concept being nerfed in gurps. Essentially warriors who felt they were equipment dependent or casters who did not want to be worthless in a no mana/low mana zone. Especially towards the begining of 4e when we were still somewhat used to 3Es cap of level 3 magery.
Ahhh. Well that explains that then.


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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Yep and if the GM is enforcing limits the bonus does hold greater value, of course part of the reason for this conversation was that we both are quibbling a bit on just how easy the default mana enhancer advantage is to share ;)
True. :-)

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
In that case thanks Refplace as well, I have been looking into them for a Fatespinner powers build idea, but hadn't stetched the idea to RPM as well.
I think it started out with me looking at Control (Teleporation) in the first Infinite Worlds Pyramid and thinking "Wow, this would be a interesting way to use RPM." and then Refplace posted something that night and I got to talking with him about it. Then a year or so later we got to chatting via email about it while discussing another subject. Overall, it works quite well. I allow each level to add to +1 or -1 to Path skill rolls or reduce the Greater Effects multiplier by a single level. You could also reduce it further to specialize in a specific effect, path, or even ritual:

Very Common: All magic in the setting. 30 points/level.
Common: Specific path or effect. 20 points/level.
Occasional: A specific combination of effects (i.e., Sense Mind), a narrow focus of a specific Path (e.g., all fire effects from Path of Energy). 15 points/level.
Rare: A specific ritual. 10 points/level.

I might be tempted to reduce each level by 5 points, but I don't know what that would look like in game play.

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
I understand they would have the limitation when creating the charm but would they also have that limitiation once activated as well? For example if a RPM caster had night only he could obviously only create a charm at night but are you saying that he could only activate previously created charms at night as well?
I've treat it that way. Charms and conditionals are bound by the effects of the Magery. You might want to exclude them for the same reason magic excludes such effects on enchanted items: ease of game play.


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It was less magic as powers but more a case of cool supernatural power sets are the rule of thumb for this game instead of actual magic, except for the Avatar Last airbender inspired Elemental Wizards who were a campaign side note.
:-) Coolness.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:29 PM   #35
Nosforontu
 
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Ahhh. Well that explains that then.
Yeah it was our expectations that the skill bumps from the advantage was almost a side note to the value of having magic stuff still working when normally it wouldnt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I think it started out with me looking at Control (Teleporation) in the first Infinite Worlds Pyramid and thinking "Wow, this would be a interesting way to use RPM." and then Refplace posted something that night and I got to talking with him about it. Then a year or so later we got to chatting via email about it while discussing another subject. Overall, it works quite well. I allow each level to add to +1 or -1 to Path skill rolls or reduce the Greater Effects multiplier by a single level. You could also reduce it further to specialize in a specific effect, path, or even ritual:

Very Common: All magic in the setting. 30 points/level.
Common: Specific path or effect. 20 points/level.
Occasional: A specific combination of effects (i.e., Sense Mind), a narrow focus of a specific Path (e.g., all fire effects from Path of Energy). 15 points/level.
Rare: A specific ritual. 10 points/level.

I might be tempted to reduce each level by 5 points, but I don't know what that would look like in game play.
This is something I am definately going to have to play around with a bit, maybe stat out a few different power path options with it.



I've treat it that way. Charms and conditionals are bound by the effects of the Magery. You might want to exclude them for the same reason magic excludes such effects on enchanted items: ease of game play.


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:-) Coolness.
Thanks, it was essentially a campaign world that was high in supernatural content but with fairly low magic (salt water was a low mana zone, the deep ocean was a no mana zone etc). The idea was that every 5 centuries or so the dominant Supernatural template of the world would rise and fall only to be displaced by the next template.

The characters were fledgling Noble Dead which 13 years ago was the dominant template which had been overran by the "Dawnbringer" essentially a vampire esque fantasy game only with the characters playing for the loosing side and that most of the time Animate Dead rather than Noble Dead would be created (character must critically succeed on an average of HT/Will roll to become Noble Dead), and a campaign assumption that all starting characters had critted.

The other assumption was that Undeath took 13 years to process because that was the length of time for the very first Undead character to be raised in that game verse.
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:05 PM   #36
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Yeah it was our expectations that the skill bumps from the advantage was almost a side note to the value of having magic stuff still working when normally it wouldnt.
Yeah, and there is nothing wrong with that. But bonuses to Path skills are huge in RPM, even a +1 bonus.


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This is something I am definately going to have to play around with a bit, maybe stat out a few different power path options with it.
I had a player who had a character with it, though he blew himself up and died two sessions in. Lots of 18s back to back.


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Thanks, it was essentially a campaign world that was high in supernatural content but with fairly low magic (salt water was a low mana zone, the deep ocean was a no mana zone etc). The idea was that every 5 centuries or so the dominant Supernatural template of the world would rise and fall only to be displaced by the next template.

The characters were fledgling Noble Dead which 13 years ago was the dominant template which had been overran by the "Dawnbringer" essentially a vampire esque fantasy game only with the characters playing for the loosing side and that most of the time Animate Dead rather than Noble Dead would be created (character must critically succeed on an average of HT/Will roll to become Noble Dead), and a campaign assumption that all starting characters had critted.

The other assumption was that Undeath took 13 years to process because that was the length of time for the very first Undead character to be raised in that game verse.
Sounds like a book I read once, but alas we are derailing the thread. So no more of this I think. :-)
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Sounds like a book I read once, but alas we are derailing the thread. So no more of this I think. :-)
With that in mind I think I will step out of this thread for a bit until PK posts his value for Mana Enhancer for RPM. I think both of our cases are more less fixed and made at this point until acted upon by an outside opinion. In which case I suspect either of us might have a few new tweak ideas to the concept

Overall of the ideas that you have offered for a 20 point cost overall I like the idea of a 10 point Talent tweaked out for area effect the best as it would package a reputation bonus to it as well which seems fitting for a walking Place of Power. I probably would stick -20% modifier like Nature on it and counter balance it with Selective 20% in play to keep the value roughly equal.
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

Okay. No problem.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:15 PM   #39
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

Well thanks for the acknowledgement and thoughts on Control (Magic). That thread is around here somewhere and I recall debating with a few people on ther cost till everyone posting got the reason it was at 40 was it pretty much covered everything in a fantasy setting. But the point cost was never blessed so is not RAW, just what I thought was fair.

FYI I built my Magic as Powers system as Rank 1 to 5 with each Rank a level of Control so 40 to 200 points and then spells as AA off that. So you could possibly even make B-Dog happy with level 1 to level 5 spells.

As for the Mana Enhancer an other stuff, keep in mind my mention of CM (Dedicated Controls) to get around the Affects Others enhancement.
The reason I came up with that was I did not want to have to buy the ER with enhancements that increased the cost to let others use your pool.
A flat 10 points seemed workable and treat the Trees like a vehicle or building.
I think 20 points is ok for the advantage but not sure I like it for fluff reasons.
So far the Natural caster and Magery seem the best fit for the setting and concept. It means my trees dont power a few big rituals a day so much a there likely to power a lot of rituals and can be used by most everyone in the village at one time or another. This actually makes them more useful and more a valuable resource to protect which I like.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

Speaking of Compartmentalized Mind what do you guys think using it only to Gather Energy is valued at? Or only to use with RPM?
I tend not to give very much but am curious on others views.
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