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Old 10-15-2013, 09:42 AM   #21
Nosforontu
 
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
Since "high mana" equates to POP+5, and enough Mana Enhancer to get there from normal mana is 100 points, it would be reasonable to revamp Mana Enhancer in an RPM-focused game to 20 points/level, maximum 5, with the level reflecting your POP bonus. This is all off the top of my head, though; please don't consider it stamped with official approval until I've had a chance to look at it when I'm more focused. :)
Overall I like the breakdown but at 20 points a level I would probably like an extra point of IQ better is my gut feeling with as few conditional use (only to gather energy) mental skills a place of power bumps by default. For 20 points I would want a mana level to do something that bumping my IQ can't do. I admit I am late to the RPM system but I didnt see that in the system...at least before my morning coffee ;)
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Overall I like the breakdown but at 20 points a level I would probably like an extra point of IQ better is my gut feeling with as few conditional use (only to gather energy) mental skills a place of power bumps by default. For 20 points I would want a mana level to do something that bumping my IQ can't do. I admit I am late to the RPM system but I didnt see that in the system...at least before my morning coffee ;)
It can - it helps other people as well.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:47 AM   #23
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

Yeah, the caster in my campaign kept getting touched my other folks wanting to use her advantage...and she kept beating them up. She balanced the point cost with a Enemy group and it worked quite well.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:50 AM   #24
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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It can - it helps other people as well.
Only for people you are carrying though before you buy in area effect. The original mana enhancer affected several hundred IQ skills RPM affects significantly fewer by default. I am not saying it needs to be a lot lower but I think with this approach mana levels might either need a bit more detailing/fleshing out for RPM to get full value of this advantage or the cost might need to brought down to about 15 points a level.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:02 AM   #25
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

These trees sound like the Trees of Life from the Dark Sun setting (supposedly rare, except for one Dragon-King having an orchard of them, I seem to recall... and an artifact that acts as a "Bag of Seeds"...).

Basically, instead of sacrificing terrain (and I'm STILL not reconciled to the "1 per acre" idea...), you get power from these mystical trees.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:05 AM   #26
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Only for people you are carrying though before you buy in area effect. The original mana enhancer affected several hundred IQ skills RPM affects significantly fewer by default. I am not saying it needs to be a lot lower but I think with this approach mana levels might either need a bit more detailing/fleshing out for RPM to get full value of this advantage or the cost might need to brought down to about 15 points a level.
Or that touch you. Keep in mind you could also buy Natural Caster at 15/level so if you concern is a boast in Path levels it is still not being addressed. The thing with a Place of Power is that they stack with everything else and others can use them. That's huge. You'd need IQ+1 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Affects Others, +50%) [40/level] or Natural Caster +1 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Affects Others, +50%) [30/level] to achieve that same effect. So no, 20/level is about right and works great.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:28 AM   #27
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Or that touch you.
Actually it says you and people or things that you are carrying. I prefer your ruling a bit more though and it would go a long way of offsetting my concerns for the price.

[QUOTE=Ghostdancer;1662427]Keep in mind you could also buy Natural Caster at 15/level so if you concern is a boast in Path levels it is still not being addressed.[QUOTE=Ghostdancer;1662427]

Natural Caster is why I am thinking that 20 points a level base line with a base radius of effect "you and everything you are carrying" might be slightly overpriced at 20 points a level when it modifies fewer skills, and then only for energy accumulation

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The thing with a Place of Power is that they stack with everything else and others can use them. That's huge. You'd need IQ+1 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Affects Others, +50%) [40/level]
Correct

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or Natural Caster +1 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Affects Others, +50%) [30/level] to achieve that same effect. So no, 20/level is about right and works great.
Almost correct Area of effect for Mana Enhancer begins with essentially area of effect [Personal] everything you are carrying, the first level of area of effect [50%] only gives a radius of 1 yard. You need another level of Area of effect to bump it up to two yards for a 100%, which I believe kicks the math up for identical levels of area of effect to 40 poins a level, though it would only be 30 points a level to affect characters within range to touch the Mana Enhancer.

If RPM changes Mana enhancer to being touch based rather than everything I am carrying I think it shifts the math enough to work for RPM a lot better.

Last edited by Nosforontu; 10-15-2013 at 10:30 AM. Reason: bad quoting... bad bad quoting
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:43 AM   #28
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Actually it says you and people or things that you are carrying. I prefer your ruling a bit more though and it would go a long way of offsetting my concerns for the price.
Which leads me to believe that people touching you are also affected. Its a logical assumption - playing it any other way does not make the price worth the effect of the ability.


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Natural Caster is why I am thinking that 20 points a level base line with a base radius of effect "you and everything you are carrying" might be slightly overpriced at 20 points a level when it modifies fewer skills, and then only for energy accumulation
And yet, those same skills can do most every spell in the standard system and many that it can't do. You also need to remember this is only a +1 bonus that others can benefit from. High Mana and Very High Mana are way better deals than anything a Place of Power could give. I suppose you could create a specific talent that covered only Path skills and Thaumatology for 10/level, and then add area of effect/affect others....but that would be 20 points... Still, I've used 20/level for the past 10 or 12 months and the two character that have had it have had happy players, not grumbling ones.


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Almost correct Area of effect for Mana Enhancer begins with essentially area of effect [Personal] everything you are carrying, the first level of area of effect [50%] only gives a radius of 1 yard. You need another level of Area of effect to bump it up to two yards for a 100%, which I believe kicks the math up for identical levels of area of effect to 40 poins a level, though it would only be 30 points a level to affect characters within range to touch the Mana Enhancer.
Always on "aura" effects have already been stated by Kromm as basically being Aura (+80%) + Always On (-40%) + Melee Attack C (-30%). So...that follows with Mana Enhancer. Again, if you are requiring characters with Mana Enhancer to physically hold other casters to get the bonus...well I've never done it that way, I've never seen anyone do it that way. Touching should be plenty.

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If RPM changes Mana enhancer to being touch based rather than everything I am carrying I think it shifts the math enough to work for RPM a lot better.
See above.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Which leads me to believe that people touching you are also affected. Its a logical assumption
Its a logical extension but I am not sure if it is supported by RAW which says you and people/things you are carrying, which implies they affect your encumbrance level. Keep in mind originally the advantage was their for things like letting your magic items still function in low mana zones (or if you had the second level of the advantage) in no mana zones since they were turned off if their skill level was reduced below 15. It would also allow personal buffs still function in low/no mana zones, and the auto refresh your fatigue pools in high enough mana zones.

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playing it any other way does not make the price worth the effect of the ability.
That is very much my concern right now. RPM can shift/clarify the rules a bit for what Mana Enhancer means/does in a RPM game, and could certainly include the explicit ruling of characters touching you are consided to get your bonus as well.

Another possibility would be if mana levels affected what was considered a Lesser/or Greater effect for a campaign, then I could easily see it being worth at least 20 points a level.

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And yet, those same skills can do most every spell in the standard system and many that it can't do.
Absolutely correct, and a major reason I am really enjoying playing around with RPM a great deal.

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I suppose you could create a specific talent that covered only Path skills and Thaumatology for 10/level, and then add area of effect/affect others....but that would be 20 points... Still, I've used 20/level for the past 10 or 12 months and the two character that have had it have had happy players, not grumbling ones.
Not doubting that your players are happy at all ghostdancer, and I certainly respect your experience with the system. I do wonder if the rules as currently written for mana enhancer work completely cleanly for RPM without shifting their prices around a bit. Just as we both agreed in an another thread that the modifier for Solitary Magery (-40%) needed to probably be reduced to (-20%) for RPM since certain basic assumptions are different for each system.


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Always on "aura" effects have already been stated by Kromm as basically being Aura (+80%) + Always On (-40%) + Melee Attack C (-30%). So...that follows with Mana Enhancer. Again, if you are requiring characters with Mana Enhancer to physically hold other casters to get the bonus...well I've never done it that way, I've never seen anyone do it that way. Touching should be plenty.
Specific rules tend trump general rules though in gaming and mana enhancer uses the specific word of "people you carry", get the benifit. I get the ruling and to be honest it has been a long time since I have run a game featuring a mana enhancer who bought it with the idea of helping someone else out rather than as insurance for their Wizard to be able to still cast in a low mana zone/no mana zone.

I like your ruling on this but the fact that the first level of mana enhancer gives you a radius of 1 yard a level rather than 2 yards a level implies to me that the 1 yard radius was chossen to reperesent people being able to make incidental contact with your character to get the "touch" benifit in play.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: Power-Ups for RPM?

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Originally Posted by Nosforontu View Post
Its a logical extension but I am not sure if it is supported by RAW which says you and people/things you are carrying, which implies they affect your encumbrance level. Keep in mind originally the advantage was their for things like letting your magic items still function in low mana zones (or if you had the second level of the advantage) in no mana zones since they were turned off if their skill level was reduced below 15. It would also allow personal buffs still function in low/no mana zones, and the auto refresh your fatigue pools in high enough mana zones.
I've always played it like this -even when I was using basic magic. Otherwise...it just doesn't make sense.

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That is very much my concern right now. RPM can shift/clarify the rules a bit for what Mana Enhancer means/does in a RPM game, and could certainly include the explicit ruling of characters touching you are consided to get your bonus as well.
If you are asking me if that' how it should be done with RPM? Yeah, I think it fits just fine (unless PK would like to chime in here). It works. I've proven that it works with hours of game play. Nothing got broken.


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Another possibility would be if mana levels affected what was considered a Lesser/or Greater effect for a campaign, then I could easily see it being worth at least 20 points a level.
More than that! The difference between a Lesser and Greater effect is triple the cost. If I were pricing a hypthetical advantage that did this I would say....120 points a level. At minimum. Maybe 150. I say 120 points because Control (Magic) is worth 40 points a level and I'd say about 3 levels are needed to reduce the cost from x3 to x1. So something that out, maybe 40 points a level as a advantage reducing the cost of a Greater effects multiplier by 1. So a ritual with 2 Greater effects cast by someone with this one level of this advantage would cost x4, not x5.

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Absolutely correct, and a major reason I am really enjoying playing around with RPM a great deal.
:-) Ditto.

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Not doubting that your players are happy at all ghostdancer, and I certainly respect your experience with the system. I do wonder if the rules as currently written for mana enhancer work completely cleanly for RPM without shifting their prices around a bit. Just as we both agreed in an another thread that the modifier for Solitary Magery (-40%) needed to probably be reduced to (-20%) for RPM since certain basic assumptions are different for each system.
And I'm not truly to bully you! Or anyone else for that matter, I just want people to have fun playing games. And if I can help with that...well, it makes me happy. Keep in mind that that halving applies to all Limitations on Magery.


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Specific rules tend trump general rules though in gaming and mana enhancer uses the specific word of "people you carry", get the benifit. I get the ruling and to be honest it has been a long time since I have run a game featuring a mana enhancer who bought it with the idea of helping someone else out rather than as insurance for their Wizard to be able to still cast in a low mana zone/no mana zone.
I've always used it as "If you touch a mana enhancer and you get the bonus."

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I like your ruling on this but the fact that the first level of mana enhancer gives you a radius of 1 yard a level rather than 2 yards a level implies to me that the 1 yard radius was chossen to reperesent people being able to make incidental contact with your character to get the "touch" benifit in play.
That makes sense.
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