02-10-2010, 02:40 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Newbie Question on Surprise rules
Hi All:
I'm new to GURPS (and new to the board) and need a little help with the rules on surprise. A few days ago, I ran a simple find & destroy mission for a small group of players; their target was a dire wolf whose stats I grabbed off Collective Restraint's website. The genre was a standard fantasy setting. Anyway, the PCs had tracked the DW back to its den and were approaching the den when one of them failed their stealth check. Hidden inside the den, the DW hears the PCs and prepares to attack. At this point, the party sees the entrance to the den, but doesn't know if their target is within. The DW knows that "prey" is just outside its door. OK, here's where I ran into trouble. The DW leaps out to attack, and I figure that the party might be surprised so I called for a surprise check. From what I read on page 393, I judged this to be partial surprise, but that requires BOTH sides to roll for initiative and the loser freezes. Well, of course the wolf loses, despite him already knowing that the party is there. Now he's got to wait 1d rounds (I rolled a 4) during which time he's frozen (no, wolves don't get Combat Reflexes) and then start trying to recover from the mental stun by rolling below his IQ of 4. I could see the DW standing there for 10 or 15 seconds while the party beats the stuffing out of him. All of this seems very "wrong" to me. Did I interpret the surprise rules correctly? If not, (and I hope not) then what did I do wrong? Thanks. All the Best, Scott |
02-10-2010, 02:59 PM | #2 |
Forum Pervert
(If you have to ask . . .) Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere high up.
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
I would have considered it total surprise. The ambushers are ambushed. Those that bought Combat Reflexes are getting their points worth. Also, if this thing has been hunting people, it should have Combat Reflexes, if not, it would have been put down by local guards.
Otherwise, it jumps in and doesn't understand what's going on with all the humans not being afraid of it, and it freezes. If that were to happen, then, yes, it would be a beat-down. |
02-10-2010, 03:05 PM | #3 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
You mixed up total and partial surprise, for starters.
The Dire Wolf jumps out and then both sides roll 1d6 for surprise. The PCs get +1 for having more IQ than a wolf, and probably +1 for having someone with Combat Reflexes on the team. They may also get +1 for having a leader with Tactics or -2 for not having a recognized leader. The wolf gets +2 for having Combat Reflexes, and possibly a +2 for initiating the combat (you can give it extra bonuses). So far, this is a somewhere between a wash or an overwhelming advantage to the wolf, and I'm not sure why you'd say the wolf automatically loses. But assuming the PCs are sharp or roll a 6 and the wolf rolls a 1, then the wolf is mentally stunned. It rolls IQ (at +1 per round) to recover, and being a monstrous predator, it gets a +6 bonus from Combat Reflexes on that surprise roll. So it stops for a second or 2 (the cumulative chance of the wolf failing 3 IQ+6 rolls is 1/20) while it recovers, and probably gets cut up if the PCs have weapons out. Alternately and more likely in my opinion, the PCs see one of their own collapse when a dire wolf jumps him with surprise, lose the initiative, and see 1-2 more go down before someone with Combat Reflexes or a high IQ gets into action. Then the wolf gets chopped to shreds, but hey. Another option would be to roll initiative before the wolf comes out to play. If the wolf is surprised, it freezes for a few seconds and then jumps out. If it isn't surprised, it jumps out and the PCs get to spend a few rounds mentally stunned and wishing they had Combat Reflexes. |
02-10-2010, 06:43 PM | #4 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zagreb,Croatia
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
1)Such "Monster wolf" would have Combat reflexes most likely
2)Wolf is already attacking,he "ambushed party" so he doesnt roll anything. -sequence is established Wolf is first,than are PCs 3)Since PCs are entering his den and expecting combat they cant be totally surprised,so in your example theyre Partially surprised.Since Wolf is ambusher he acts first while PCs are mentally stunned. When PCs turn comes(when wolf is finished...maybe he already attacked them or is still running toward them,depends on your setup) Each PC must make "Do nothing manoeuvre" and rolls vs Will to get out of mental stun(Combat ref give +6 to that roll). Than ,its Wolfs turn again.... After wolf is done is PC turn...those who snaped out of Mental stun last turn can act normally,those that didnt now roll vs Will+1( +1 to Will on 2nd turn,+2 on 3rd,+3 on 4th...etc since this is partial surprise). 4) Only time when you roll initiative for both Wolf and PCs would be if they didnt noticed each other and have blundered on each other. So called "encounter" when neither side expected encounter...than you roll initiative Basic p 393.
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02-11-2010, 12:04 AM | #5 | |
Never Been Pretty
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
Quote:
"This may occur when the defenders were expecting trouble... or when each party surprised the other! The GM should require each side to roll for initiative." [Basic 393] As I read the rules, you should roll in both cases, which is what OP did. I don't know how SJGames justify this outcome though, but I hope it came up before the game went to publication. In regards to dire wolves, I must say that my dire wolf template does have combat reflexes on it. |
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02-11-2010, 12:11 PM | #6 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
In brief:
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02-12-2010, 08:18 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lyon, France
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
Quote:
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02-12-2010, 08:49 AM | #8 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zagreb,Croatia
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
Thats logic;Why would I have to roll for partial surprise if I sneaked behind guards back and am about to stab him when he turns his head and spots me?
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02-12-2010, 08:56 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
Quote:
Don't have time to analyze and see if it's extractable from the text, but I remember thinking there was a gaping hole there when I read it.
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02-12-2010, 09:14 AM | #10 | |
Never Been Pretty
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Newbie Question on Surprise rules
Quote:
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