how useful is Luck?

[captaincomic]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Do you understand that in Gurps, a crit fail in combat (or an enemiy's crit success) is highly likely to result in character death?

This isn't about preventing amusing mishaps, It's about not replacing characters.

Point taken. I do know that GURPS isnt D&D. I don't have any actual experience with GURPS yet, and of course my impression might change after actual play.

But my PCs should be rather save (at least for now). In what I have planned so far for the first sessions, my PCs will face wild (possible mutated) animals and mooks (unarmed or some with improvised weapons). No one is carrying firearms, except for some guards, and the PCs should really not engage them in combat.
Later on the situation might change of course.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by captaincomic

Point taken. I do know that GURPS isnt D&D. I don't have any actual experience with GURPS yet, and of course my impression might change after actual play.

But my PCs should be rather save (at least for now). In what I have planned so far for the first sessions, my PCs will face wild (possible mutated) animals and mooks (unarmed or some with improvised weapons). No one is carrying firearms, except for some guards, and the PCs should really not engage them in combat.
Later on the situation might change of course.

Even unarmed people can kill, and unarmed animals certainly can. It only takes a few hits to kill a man even with a low-damage weapon, and one hit can often take them out of the fight entirely.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by captaincomic

Point taken. I do know that GURPS isnt D&D. I don't have any actual experience with GURPS yet, and of course my impression might change after actual play.

But my PCs should be rather save (at least for now). In what I have planned so far for the first sessions, my PCs will face wild (possible mutated) animals and mooks (unarmed or some with improvised weapons). No one is carrying firearms, except for some guards, and the PCs should really not engage them in combat.
Later on the situation might change of course.

Can any creature do 2-4 points of damage? Can any creature, even accidentally,hit somone in the head?

It only takes a roll vs 1d-2 to roll a 4, which is something like ST 9 with thrust, and ST 7 with swing.

A blow to the skull is unlikely, but possible even with random hit locations.

A lucky critical hit roll on the Critical Head Blow table on p. B556 can triple rolled damage, which is then quadrupled for the brain!

So: brain hit, roll 4. Subtract DR 2 for the skill, 2 pts penetrate. Tripled for the critical hit to 6, x4 for brain scrambling is 24 pts of injury, enough to make a person with up to 12 HP roll vs HT or die.

What are the odds of that? Yeah, pretty low. But this is what Luck is for . . . getting taken out of the game, deader than heck, because some ST 7 mook rolls a crit with a club.

[mook]

I've been creating quite a few one-shots lately - for those pre-gen characters, everyone gets Luck (except for Horror games). No one likes getting taken out in the 2nd hour of a 4 hour game, and Luck gives them a bit of a safety net.

For my regular, recurring groups, Luck is heavily suggested, but of course the players can do what they want. Subsequent mocking optional.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by captaincomic

Point taken. I do know that GURPS isnt D&D. I don't have any actual experience with GURPS yet, and of course my impression might change after actual play.

But my PCs should be rather save (at least for now). In what I have planned so far for the first sessions, my PCs will face wild (possible mutated) animals and mooks (unarmed or some with improvised weapons). No one is carrying firearms, except for some guards, and the PCs should really not engage them in combat.
Later on the situation might change of course.

Melee weapons aren't toys either. Though if you're not using Martial Arts extra bleeding options, it's relatively unlikely you'll one-shot a PC with a mook. (I ran a simulation, once, and found that with those rules an average character is pretty likely to bleed to death from a pocket knife to the vitals if they don't get surgical care.)

However, a moderately powerful mook with a swung weapon, against characters without good armor, can wind up dismembering your PCs or mashing their brains out.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by D10

in my game, theres a dice roll every 20 mins, and combat is rare, so luck is in my pcs view, the best advantage in the game.

That sounds like almost character sheet-less play. Self-play rather than playing the character as he is defined by the character sheet.

Also, have you seen the modifier to most (all?) luck-type advantages in GURPS Powers? It's +0% and modifies them so that they work on in-world time instead of metagame time. If it's a pacing problem you have, then making that modifier mandatory on Luck would solve it. If it's a desire to play nearly sheetless, it might stll help a little, saving you the trouble of having to ban Luck or increase the cost.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kale

Often in a game there will be a 'make-or-break the adventure' roll [...] Without Luck, the adventure would have turned nasty for the PCs right on the spot.

That's exactly what I meant about "sniping" vital rolls. I think it's really, really nice that GURPS has a mechanic that lets the GM toss in seriously scary chokepoints that could get the PCs killed, secure in the knowledge that they have the means to push past the chokepoint . . . for a price. The price being that they've used up their insurance policy and must deal with the next bit cautiously. It keeps the campaign dramatic without making it needlessly lethal. (Frankly, if lethality is a campaign's main source of drama, then I think it has meta-game problems!)

Originally Posted by Ts_

In a gritty campaign, which your post-apocalyptic campaign could very well be, PCs often struggle to survive. That might even be the whole point of the campaign. Then it can be a very inappropriate advantage, destroying the feel of the setting.

I really don't think so. The reasons given above explain why. There is still a cost: Your insurance is gone. Now you have to be really, really careful. For one thing:

GURPS is one of those games where there's not only a death spiral (if you slow down, suffer DX penalties, get stunned, fall, etc., then you can rest assured that you'll get hurt again), but also a reasonable chance that any weapon blow from anyone can kill anyone else. The ablative HP hide the fact that on a 3-4, your enemy might just blow through everything you have and drop you. Unless part of the "fun" of a campaign is sitting it out or making new PCs, Luck provides insurance against those disasters. It doesn't remove the gradual erosion and grimness of prolonged exposure to combat, the elements, fatigue, and so on. And really, it's that grit that most struggle-oriented campaigns aim to emphasize – not sudden "Oh, look, you're dead!" moments. If anything, simply killing a PC and letting another step in kills the drama, whereas narrowly avoiding death thanks to Luck, only to have no Luck left for that HT roll vs. slow infection, enhances the drama.

For another:

Originally Posted by Celjabba

One thing to note is that, even if it is called 'luck', it doesn't have to be the expression of luck.
It can also be seen as being very competent, either as a cinematic hero, or just as a very skilled/gifted character(especially with aspected luck).

Precisely! Luck can represent very good training for a totally realistic person. It's the "really, truly doesn't make very many mistakes because he's just that attentive" trait. Read that way, I find it suits even the most harshly realistic campaigns, as there actually are people who are trained more to avoid screwups than to be so good that they can attempt the impossible. And as this is a fatiguing level of readiness, the sporadic nature of Luck is quite apropos for such individuals.

[captaincomic]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Can any creature do 2-4 points of damage? Can any creature, even accidentally,hit somone in the head?

It only takes a roll vs 1d-2 to roll a 4, which is something like ST 9 with thrust, and ST 7 with swing.

A blow to the skull is unlikely, but possible even with random hit locations.

A lucky critical hit roll on the Critical Head Blow table on p. B556 can triple rolled damage, which is then quadrupled for the brain!

So: brain hit, roll 4. Subtract DR 2 for the skill, 2 pts penetrate. Tripled for the critical hit to 6, x4 for brain scrambling is 24 pts of injury, enough to make a person with up to 12 HP roll vs HT or die.

What are the odds of that? Yeah, pretty low. But this is what Luck is for . . . getting taken out of the game, deader than heck, because some ST 7 mook rolls a crit with a club.

Okay, I see :). I won't attack the head, animals bite the limbs or torsor, mooks just hit at the torso, but still I get your point.
Later in the game there will be definitly tougher and more cunning enemies.

You convinced me. I think I might even give all my PCs one level of Luck now :)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Luck can represent very good training for a totally realistic person. It's the "really, truly doesn't make very many mistakes because he's just that attentive" trait. Read that way, I find it suits even the most harshly realistic campaigns, as there actually are people who are trained more to avoid screwups than to be so good that they can attempt the impossible. And as this is a fatiguing level of readiness, the sporadic nature of Luck is quite apropos for such individuals.

I wonder if there's a place for a limited version of Luck that's acquired like Style Perks. For every (um) 10 points in a skill, or for once at DX+2, another at DX+4, it allows you a re-roll in the same way Luck works when using THAT skill.

So if you're a Swordmaster, and your mookish foe crits, you can "burn" one of your mastery points to foil that crit.

[Kromm]

That's pretty much how Wildcard Points work in Monster Hunters. I think that pegging it to specific skills is too much accounting if said skills aren't wildcard skills, though. Luck is fine for those with dozens of skills and a lot of training in taking extra care with them.