GURPS Black Ops to 4th edition

[oma]

Upon reading templates in Black Ops for Delta Force soldier, the template is 185pts. When making the same character in 4th ed, he is way over 200pts. A lot of this stems from the higher point cost of DX and IQ in 4th edition and the fact that 3rd edition would use 1/2 points for skills.

Given this, what would you do? Make it a higher cost template? Pare it down to less skills or attributes? I would think that lowering attributes would be better than eliminating the skills. Of course, in my game I also use the variant separating WILL and PER from IQ, so that inflates my cost even more.

Your ideas from converting 3rd to 4th and point differences.

[Joseph Paul]

Live with the point difference. You are trying to get the same effectiveness in $e as in 3e, right? If that costs more so be it. Is this going to throw off something else?

[Kromm]

Yeah, 4e points aren't the same "currency" as 3e ones. Some individual costs are the same, but on average, a 4e point is worth about 2/3 of what a 3e one was worth. Thus, 100-point 3e characters ought to become 150-point 4e ones, 200-point 3e characters should become 300-point 4e ones, and so on. It's incorrect to try to keep a campaign at the same absolute point level in 4e that it was at in 3e; doing that means asking the players to take a 33% cut in effectiveness. It's a bit like saying, "You'll get the same bank balance, but we'll change that € to $."

[davidtmoore]

Baldly, GURPS 4e requires higher point totals. Losing the half-point minimum on skills, topping out IQ skills at 4/level rather than 2/level, and 20/level base on DX and IQ all hike point totals for characters at least a little, and for skill-intensive characters like special ops, lots. This is even reflected in the recommended point totals in the Basic Set: "standard" characters are now 150 points rather than 100 points.

The templates are researched (although since real people don't have game stats, it's obviously partly eyeball) to reflect the training and ability of people trained by those organisations. You're much better off sticking to the templates and upping your point total than sticking to the point total and watering down the templates; apart from anything else, doing the contrary would mean they no longer reflect the real-world people they're modelled on.

EDIT: Ninjaed by the Kromm.

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yeah, 4e points aren't the same "currency" as 3e ones. Some individual costs are the same, but on average, a 4e point is worth about 2/3 of what a 3e one was worth. Thus, 100-point 3e characters ought to become 150-point 4e ones, 200-point 3e characters should become 300-point 4e ones, and so on. It's incorrect to try to keep a campaign at the same absolute point level in 4e that it was at in 3e; doing that means asking the players to take a 33% cut in effectiveness. It's a bit like saying, "You'll get the same bank balance, but we'll change that € to $."

I was planning to ask about this eventually. Is it that things cost more now (inflation), or is it that players wanted more powerful "average" (formerly 100 pt.) characters? Or a combination of both?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by schmeelke

I was planning to ask about this eventually. Is it that things cost more now (inflation), or is it that players wanted more powerful "average" (formerly 100 pt.) characters? Or a combination of both?

Costs are higher. 4E 150 doesn't quite stretch as far as 3E 100, depending on how the 3E character was constructed.

If you want more power, you just up the starting point value.

[oma]

you know what I love about this forum. Answers! and fast. That's great guys. Thanks. I will adjust up the template costs to reflect 4th Edition.

[oma]

On a related note, these special ops guys Delta Force, Navy SEALs, etc, they are very experienced in hand to hand yet they are given brawling. It doesn't appear that the special techniques they are trained in are covered as brawling techniques. Should this be judo instead??

[DAT]

Originally Posted by oma

Upon reading templates in Black Ops for Delta Force soldier, the template is 185pts. ...

I believe you ment the Delta Forces soldier template in "Special Ops", not "Black Ops".

"Special Ops" has templates for highly trained realistic soldiers.

"Black Ops" has 3e 750 point templates for cinematic Monster Hunters who go after aliens, vampires, etc.

-Dan

[davidtmoore]

Originally Posted by oma

On a related note, these special ops guys Delta Force, Navy SEALs, etc, they are very experienced in hand to hand yet they are given brawling. It doesn't appear that the special techniques they are trained in are covered as brawling techniques. Should this be judo instead??

The Military Hand to Hand styles in Martial Arts all include at least one striking and one grappling skill - Karate and Judo, Karate and Wrestling, Brawling and Judo, or Judo, Karate and Wrestling, respectively. MCMAP is probably closest to what Delta Force and Navy SEALs would receive, and that's based on Brawling and Judo, with a short list of techniques based mostly on using as much as your body as possible (elbow strikes and so on).

Martial Arts and Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems are good investments if you want crunchy, detailed military brutality. If you're less fussed, then yeah, Brawling and Judo and a couple of basic techniques.