[DF] Secondary Attribute or Advantage?

[Tinman]

I'm GM-ing a DF campaign & need help.
We are using the rules at the back of DF 3- The Next Level about training and training expenses.

What I can't figure out is if Lifting ST is a Secondary Attribute or an Advantage.
Any help about this would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[scc]

The Secondary Attribute is Basic Lift, Lifting ST is an Advantage

[Phantasm]

In many ways, Lifting ST is kinda-sorta both. Officially, it's an Advantage, but is often treated as a Secondary Attribute... or more accurately, a fraction of an Attribute.

What it does is increase your effective ST for the purposes of determining Basic Lift ((ST^2)/5).

As for what I mean by "a fraction of an attribute", it's commonly accepted that "ST = Striking ST + Lifting ST + HP", with the unspoken assumption that you're effectively buying all three to an equilibrium before adding in additional levels of the others (or lowering HP).

Clear as mud?

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

In many ways, Lifting ST is kinda-sorta both. Officially, it's an Advantage, but is often treated as a Secondary Attribute... or more accurately, a fraction of an Attribute.

What it does is increase your effective ST for the purposes of determining Basic Lift ((ST^2)/5).

As for what I mean by "a fraction of an attribute", it's commonly accepted that "ST = Striking ST + Lifting ST + HP", with the unspoken assumption that you're effectively buying all three to an equilibrium before adding in additional levels of the others (or lowering HP).

Clear as mud?

I get all the above. However, the rules for advancement in DF 3 are that you don't meet to pay training costs for attributes or secondary's.
I need to determine if Lift ST counts as an Advantage (which has training costs) or a Secondary Attribute (which doesn't).

It seems like it's an Advantage, although almost every thing else based on the base attributes is a secondary. Will, per, HP, FP, Basic speed, basic move, & other moves. It seems inconsistent that lifting ST & Strike ST are not.

[Peter Knutsen]

Lifting ST and Striking ST aren't trainable unless you buy levels of the Special Exercises Perk.

This opens up the interesting possibility that you can assign a monetary cost to the point that the Perk costs but have the points for the levels in the associated Advantage cost nothing.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Lifting ST and Striking ST aren't trainable unless you buy levels of the Special Exercises Perk.

They are trainable in DF.

Originally Posted by Tinman

I get all the above. However, the rules for advancement in DF 3 are that you don't meet to pay training costs for attributes or secondary's.
I need to determine if Lift ST counts as an Advantage (which has training costs) or a Secondary Attribute (which doesn't).

While I believe they should have been simply priced in the little boxes for Secondary Characteristics, RAW they are Advantages.

[scc]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

While I believe they should have been simply priced in the little boxes for Secondary Characteristics, RAW they are Advantages.

They don't add directly to much much you can carry or how hard you hit with, so the way they are is correct

[dripton]

You're the GM, so it's up to you.

I choose to treat Lifting ST as a Secondary Attribute. I realize that it's in the Advantages section so this is questionable, but I think it fits better with the Secondary Attributes. Especially since its primary purpose (at least in a campaign not focused on grappling) is to increase Basic Lift, which is a Secondary Attribute.

Buying Lifting ST is very common in the games I run. At least in some genres, it's very common to run around encumbered all the time, and reducing encumbrance is just about as good as raising Basic Speed but much cheaper.