Fantasy Trip Glitches, Contradictions, Ambiguities

[red2]

Here are a few unclear things I have run across. Not sure if I am misreading the rules so please correct me if I am. Also I just skimmed the thread so sorry if they have been mentioned.

(1) If you take 5 or more hits in one turn, your DX is adjusted by -2 on the next turn. But if you haven't attacked yet during the current turn (i.e., you have the lower adjDX), shouldn't you have a -2 this turn? The way we play is that the -2 applies only to your next attack (unless of course you decide not to attack when your turn comes).

(2) If you have a left hand dagger, can you throw it? Is there a DX adjustment? The way we play, you can instantaneously switch hands from weak to strong so you can throw it whenever you want with no penalty, and have your other weapon in your strong hand next turn with no penalty. It gives an added incentive to use a left hand dagger, which in my opinion isn't much of a benefit considering the DX penalties.

(3) If you are engaged in a battle with a higher adjDX opponent, technically they get to act/attack before you get to take your action. If you want to choose to defend, you can't really do so from a strict reading of the rules. The way we play is that the defend option is an exception to the strict "highest adjDX goes first" rule. If the high DX figure decides to attack, the low DX figure states they want to defend and there is no changing your mind after that.

(4) In my version of advanced melee, you can move up to one hex and either defend or dodge. However, if you move up to half your MA, you can only dodge. My guess is that this was an accidental omission of the defend option, so we play that you can choose to do either.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by red2

Here are a few unclear things I have run across. Not sure if I am misreading the rules so please correct me if I am. Also I just skimmed the thread so sorry if they have been mentioned.

(1) If you take 5 or more hits in one turn, your DX is adjusted by -2 on the next turn. But if you haven't attacked yet during the current turn (i.e., you have the lower adjDX), shouldn't you have a -2 this turn? The way we play is that the -2 applies only to your next attack (unless of course you decide not to attack when your turn comes).

Misread, correct you are.

You have the rule incorrectly stated as: "your DX is adjusted by -2 ON the next turn."

However, the rule reads:"A figure which takes 5 or more hits in any one turn, has it's DX adjusted -2 FOR the next turn ONLY." TFT:AM p.18

My personal interpretation is: This is a REACTION TO INJURY which is happening to you as a result of your opponent's attack phase, just like the hits you take which are immediately marked against your ST, so are Reactions to Injuries immediately applied against your current DX, and lasts for the next turn only (Duration of Reaction as a temporary -DX penalty, and is not permanent).

Also See the TFT:AM p3: 2. TURN SEQUENCE AND OPTIONS. (4) ACTIONS - and I apply the Reaction to injury during the same action phase which delivered the damage, taking immediate effect, and lasting for the the next turn only. In other words, regardless of exactly when you get hit during a game turn, I personally judge it to be that your DX immediately is adjusted down along with the hits incurred, and you remain at the newly adjusted DX until the completion of the turn in which you have your next (reduced) action phase in; and then recover from your reaction and lose the penalty - that is how I handle it anyway. Short Answer: the very next time you go to act, be it during this turn or during the next turn, you are at -2DX. After you paid that penalty one time, you are clear of it.

Hope that helps you clarify it for yourself.

If you could break your other questions down into bite-size questions I would be glad to attempt to help more.

[Kirk]

We play this as it is stated, so the -2 DX applies to the *next* turn, not action. A character can attack on the current turn without a -2, being basically a follow-through with what he is doing at regular DX, getting bonked takes a few seconds to affect the character.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by red2

(3) If you are engaged in a battle with a higher adjDX opponent, technically they get to act/attack before you get to take your action. If you want to choose to defend, you can't really do so from a strict reading of the rules. The way we play is that the defend option is an exception to the strict "highest adjDX goes first" rule. If the high DX figure decides to attack, the low DX figure states they want to defend and there is no changing your mind after that.

The movement and declaration of actions happens at the "beginning" of the turn. Both sides declare an option and perform the movement portion of it, then DXs are consulted and actions are executed. I can declare "shift and defend", shift, then you declare "shift and attack", shift, then act according to DX, you attack me, I am defending, you roll 4 dice.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by red2

(4) In my version of advanced melee, you can move up to one hex and either defend or dodge. However, if you move up to half your MA, you can only dodge. My guess is that this was an accidental omission of the defend option, so we play that you can choose to do either.

Yeah, I think it's a literal technical mistakenly unclear point, but it is corrected and clarified on Advanced Melee page 4 under CHANGING OPTIONS, where it says you can change your declared option after the Movement Phase, and anyone who moved 1/2 their MA or less can Attack, Dodge, Defend, or Drop.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yeah, I think it's a literal technical mistakenly unclear point, but it is corrected and clarified on Advanced Melee page 4 under CHANGING OPTIONS, where it says you can change your declared option after the Movement Phase, and anyone who moved 1/2 their MA or less can Attack, Dodge, Defend, or Drop.

I agree with that, as both add +1d6 to the attackers roll; whereas Dodge relates to being disengaged, and Defend relates to be engaged; yet both are defensive action.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by red2

Here are a few unclear things I have run across. Not sure if I am misreading the rules so please correct me if I am. Also I just skimmed the thread so sorry if they have been mentioned.

(1) If you take 5 or more hits in one turn, your DX is adjusted by -2 on the next turn. But if you haven't attacked yet during the current turn (i.e., you have the lower adjDX), shouldn't you have a -2 this turn? The way we play is that the -2 applies only to your next attack (unless of course you decide not to attack when your turn comes).

That's what we did as well, even though the rules says "next turn." Actually, the rule is implausible as written:

"A figure which takes 5 or more hits in one turn has its DX adjusted -2 for the next turn ONLY."

So Al (Adj. DX 13) hits Bob (AdjDX 10) and 5 points of damage get through. Since the -2 DX is "for the next turn ONLY", Bob's adjDX THIS turn is still 10. Bob's DX is only adjusted next turn.

That's ridiculous, so we played it as affecting the next action.

(2) If you have a left hand dagger, can you throw it? Is there a DX adjustment? The way we play, you can instantaneously switch hands from weak to strong so you can throw it whenever you want with no penalty, and have your other weapon in your strong hand next turn with no penalty. It gives an added incentive to use a left hand dagger, which in my opinion isn't much of a benefit considering the DX penalties.

This never came up, but I'd go with your ruling. Switching hands takes a negligible amount of time.

(3) If you are engaged in a battle with a higher adjDX opponent, technically they get to act/attack before you get to take your action. If you want to choose to defend, you can't really do so from a strict reading of the rules.

I allow figures to select defend or dodge immediately before being attacked.

(4) In my version of advanced melee, you can move up to one hex and either defend or dodge. However, if you move up to half your MA, you can only dodge. My guess is that this was an accidental omission of the defend option, so we play that you can choose to do either.

Agreed.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

That's what we did as well, even though the rules says "next turn." Actually, the rule is implausible as written:

"A figure which takes 5 or more hits in one turn has its DX adjusted -2 for the next turn ONLY."

So Al (Adj. DX 13) hits Bob (AdjDX 10) and 5 points of damage get through. Since the -2 DX is "for the next turn ONLY", Bob's adjDX THIS turn is still 10. Bob's DX is only adjusted next turn.

That's ridiculous, so we played it as affecting the next action.

That's what we tended to think, too. We actually played it so that it gave -2 DX through the end of the next turn, including any uses of DX on the turn the figure was hurt, even though this could affect two attacks if someone was hurt that much before they got to attack (but the figure could switch to Defend or Disengage or something).

Unfortunately I think there are no clear examples in the text. There should be two examples in the Melee example combat, but instead the author/players seem to have forgotten in both cases that the figure who got hit for a penalty first actually had an attack coming to them, which they end up not even taking. There's no such situation in the Wizard example combat. In the Advanced Melee example there is one example - the troll after being hit for 10 on turn 5 attacks, but he hits with a roll of 6 (which would hit in either case) and no mention if he were at a penalty - it tends to suggest though that the literal meaning was intended, even if many of us didn't like that and played otherwise. ;-)

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

That's what we tended to think, too. We actually played it so that it gave -2 DX through the end of the next turn, including any uses of DX on the turn the figure was hurt, even though this could affect two attacks if someone was hurt that much before they got to attack (but the figure could switch to Defend or Disengage or something).

Unfortunately I think there are no clear examples in the text. There should be two examples in the Melee example combat, but instead the author/players seem to have forgotten in both cases that the figure who got hit for a penalty first actually had an attack coming to them, which they end up not even taking. There's no such situation in the Wizard example combat. In the Advanced Melee example there is one example - the troll after being hit for 10 on turn 5 attacks, but he hits with a roll of 6 (which would hit in either case) and no mention if he were at a penalty - it tends to suggest though that the literal meaning was intended, even if many of us didn't like that and played otherwise. ;-)

The problem with this situation in the Example of Combat is:


(1) TURN 6: Grabby, the thief, (a higher DX character) gets hit by the Troll (a lower DX figure) who attacks last during Turn 6 - and the troll's attack is the last action for the turn. Therefore, Grabby's DX penalty does not manifest until the start of Turn 7 - this is correct. HOWEVER, what is needed is an example of when a lower adj DX character is hit for 5 or more points of damage on the turn before he would act during that same turn - especially as that is the usual case.

In other words the Example of Combat only illustrates the situation as an example of an exclusive reaction to the turn in which the injury was received. The addition of an internal reaction - within the same turn - example would be welcome; or simply the inclusion of a sentence after Grabby is struck by troll, in TURN 6, along the lines of: ..."immediately reducing Grabby's DX by -2 because of his wounds."

As it stand now, Grabby's Reaction to Injury is not even mentioned until DX's are being figures figured in TURN 7; and long after Grabby was actually hit back in TURN 6.

Would be nice to have that all tightened up for crystal clarity.

Also, other issues within the Example of Combat:

(2) Under Turn 2, in paragraph 2, it states: "During combat, the highest adjDX is the troll's at 11."

When in point-of-fact, it is Kov, the wizard who has a adjDX of 12; "but decides not to try a spell after all."- but this is not mentioned in the text until AFTER the troll - adjDX 11 - has attacked Henchious; and Henchious - adjDX 8 - attacks the troll in response.

Poor Kov, he is like an afterthought! LOL!

Would also be nice to have that all tightened up for crystal clarity.

(3) Melio is armed with a spear which is "too short" to jab from one hex away, and yet, the example has him doing this just the same - THIS IS ONE IS KNOWN ERRATUM to SJ.

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

The problem with this situation in the Example of Combat is:

(1) TURN 6: Grabby, the thief, (a higher DX character) gets hit by the Troll (a lower DX figure) who attacks last during Turn 6 - and the troll's attack is the last action for the turn. Therefore, Grabby's DX penalty does not manifest until the start of Turn 7 - this is correct. HOWEVER, what is needed is an example of when a lower adj DX character is hit for 5 or more points of damage on the turn before he would act during that same turn - especially as that is the usual case.

Yes, but there is one, as I wrote above.

i.e. On turn 5, where Grabby goes before the troll and hits the troll for 10 damage, which despite the troll's ST 30 is enough to cause a -2 penalty, and the troll does attacks after that on turn 5. That's the only example I know of showing this situation that is the one in question. And the result is the example does not mention a penalty on turn 5 for the troll, and the troll hits but by rolling low enough it would've hit even with a -2 penalty.

But since every other -2 penalty is pretty much mentioned in the example, and pretty much everywhere in the rules that mention the -2 penalty show it as "for the NEXT turn (only)" or "for the next turn ONLY". (Some of us just don't like hitting someone for 5-7 damage and then getting smacked back no different than if we'd missed. ;-) )

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

(2) Under Turn 2, in paragraph 2, it states: "During combat, the highest adjDX is the troll's at 11."

When in point-of-fact, it is Kov, the wizard who has a adjDX of 12; "but decides not to try a spell after all."- but this is not mentioned in the text until AFTER the troll - adjDX 11 - has attacked Henchious; and Henchious - adjDX 8 - attacks the troll in response.

Poor Kov, he is like an afterthought! LOL!

Good point. Kov's player should get a "Kov decided not to try a spell first!" T-shirt!