Who needs tanks?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

So there is nothing filling the role of cavalry now then?

Cavalry filled several roles, some of which no longer exist. I'm not saying that tanks will become obsolete, I'm saying that it's unreasonable to claim that just because they haven't become obsolete they won't in the future.

[Panzerfaust]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

This is really funny given how several of the orrigional Mechs where lifted dirrectly from anime sources.

Battletech is very anime inspired.

That may be the case, but do they have manipulator arms and move at speeds where the g-forces would probably cause you to black out or die from the sudden hurking and jerking? Also, I already am well acquainted with the whole macross and robotech argument with the battletech universe. Damn near cost us the new mech warrior game >_>

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

This is really funny given how several of the orrigional Mechs where lifted dirrectly from anime sources.

Battletech is very anime inspired.

Not exactly. All of the original Mechs were taken from various anime (not just Macross but some more obscure ones of that era).

However, as was noted at the time, neither the game play nor the background were very similar to the anime of the time.

Particularly notable is that even though the Wasp, the Stinger, the Phoenix Hawk and the Crusader were taken from various models of the transformable Veritech from Macross the BT versions were not transformable and were generally portrayed as less agile.

This was not hard really. As the Palladium Robotech game noted the Veritech humanoid mode was more agile than its' pilot was outside the machine.

So, different gameplay and different feel. I think that the creators of BattleTech (or BattleDroids as it originally was til Lucas threatened to sue) just took some available models and art and used those for a different sort of genre, similar only in the existence of giant robots.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Not exactly. All of the original Mechs were taken from various anime (not just Macross but some more obscure ones of that era).

It's also worth noting that classic Battletech mecha borrowings did not preserve the original scale of the mecha they borrowed. Designs that might have been 3-4 meters tall originally were rescaled to 7-10 meters (or vice versa). Same for mass. E.g., the 100-ton Atlas battlemech design seems to be based on an Armored Trooper Votoms mecha that is basically an overgrown battlesuit at six tons.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by Langy

Converting the TL9 100mm cannon to ETK gives you 6dx50 damage by itself - the 100mm cannon does 6dx25 damage and you multiply that by two to get the ETK damage. If you use boosted velocity mode in your ETK gun, you get a further +1 damage per die or +300 damage. That's 1350 damage on average, or 6dx64 pi++ damage.

Still not enough to pierce an Ogre's armor until you add an armor piercing warhead onto it - you can boost that 6dx64 pi++ damage to 6dx64 (5) pi++, which will penetrate up to 6,750 DR on average.

Also, the tank in Ultra-Tech isn't a main battle tank. It's a light tank with about half the armor (and mass) of a TL8 main battle tank. It's specifically called a Light Battle Tank in the book.

You know I have no idea why I couldn't multiply when I wrote that! The grav tank has the thicker armor at 700 DR on the front. It is still less than the HT MBT front armor.

So assuming that an inexpensive round from the 100mm cannon or a souped up KK missle is the top dog the AFVs need better than 6750 DR on a facing to survive. That is going to weigh a lot. Going Ogre may be the only real option to have AFVs.

Going with large AFVs what do you get? Massive firepower in one spot and concentrated defenses with lasers and AP guns. If they could survive several hits from PA infantry they might be useful in a sturmtrooper mode for creating breaches and exploiting breakthroughs. Using armed drones to probe and draw fire that fixes the location of enemy troopers for counter-missile strikes may be a viable tactic.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

You know I have no idea why I couldn't multiply when I wrote that! The grav tank has the thicker armor at 700 DR on the front. It is still less than the HT MBT front armor.

I don't think that's actually thicker, just a TL more advanced.

[Langy]

No, what he meant was that the tank in Ultra-Tech has thicker armor on the front than it does elsewhere - it's 700 in the front and 300 elsewhere. The TL7 Main Battle Tank has 1155 DR in front and 165 elsewhere (the turret and the top have different armor, but that's the basic armor).

If we use the progression from Spaceships, a TL8 main battle tank should have 1.5 times the armor of the TL7 MBT, while a TL9 main battle tank should have 2.5 times as much armor as the TL7 MBT. The TL10 main battle tank would have 3.5 times the armor of the TL7 MBT. That winds up with about 4,000 DR for the TL10 main battle tank's front and about 5,000 DR for it's turret's front.

[Anthony]

Basically, 'grav tank' should really be read as 'helicopter gunship', not 'tank'. Both design and tactical uses are closer to the gunship.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Basically, 'grav tank' should really be read as 'helicopter gunship', not 'tank'. Both design and tactical uses are closer to the gunship.

At that TL, yes, though it has significant differences, notably in combat persistence, that make the grav tank more useful.

As has been stated, these designs are all lightweight ones for space-mobile forces. Covering the entire tank with DR 300 also uses up its weight at high TLs; unlike the T-72 there is no statement that the top and deck are significantly less well armored, a reflection of the need to ensure you aren't cheaply killed by small submunitions or rapid-fire small caliber electromag guns on flying robot drones and the like

At present, my vehicle design rules tend to let you reliably get about about twice the armor at TL10 that you can get at late TL8
for a tank, or somewhat more if you don't also improve the performance of other tank components (e.g., take mass savings from a somewhat lighter per kW power train and move that into armor rather than a bigger gun or faster speed).

My current favored conventional tracked tank design at TL10 in the 60-ton range has about DR 5,000 frontal armor with DR 6,000 on the turret front, with an unmanned gun turret of somewhat smaller profile than current designs. Top armor is only about DR 500 but augmented by non-explosive reactive armor.

The high effectiveness of the guided missiles in UT results from certain assumptions about ultra-tech high-energy density propellants being available and practical in small missiles are applied (figuring the PCs are more likely to be the guys crawling about on the ground); a more conservative approach to hypervelocity missile extrapolation can keep missile velocities lower or masses higher (about 2 to 2.5 greater), and therefore would result in tanks being more survivable, though I imagine a good point defense system would be effective even against hypervelocity msl. threats (using missile, railgun, or energy weapon).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Going with large AFVs what do you get? Massive firepower in one spot and concentrated defenses with lasers and AP guns. If they could survive several hits from PA infantry they might be useful in a sturmtrooper mode for creating breaches and exploiting breakthroughs.

...and all of this is only possible at places you can drive the uber-tank to after it leaves the factory.

Or maybe you can include places that have an unbroken chain of passable surface routes and deepwater harbors with heavy equipment servicing ships that are either not attacked by hostile forces or are equipped like Ogres themselves.

This also assumes of course that you can wait for the uber-tank to drive it self or be carried by ship to the battlefield. Just me, I'd try and get the fun and games over with before they could arrive.

Looks like a pretty limited niche to me.