Who needs tanks?

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by copeab

I think it can be just as powerful, assuming the mecha is in the same weight class as the tank.

How? Think about how much bigger the gun on a tank is than the rifle a person the size of a tank might carry. Hell the servos needed to manipulate that in the arms are going to cut into the overall weight so a smaller percentage of the weight is going to be in the weapon system.

The mecha will always have a smaller weapon, so what you have to argue is that weapon size is not connected to weapon power.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If it's required to use it that way, it doesn't have any special ability to aim over or around things, any more than the tank does. At which point you can get rid of the ridiculous anthropomorphism and mount the weapon on the torso directly.

You can shoot with a longarm over a corner, especially if a camera is mounted on it instead of a scope (which is reasonable).

[LuciusSummers]

Assuming the general increase in computer power and the innovation of quantum processing then there comes a point where all projectile paths can be calculated.

Even beam weapons could be tracked from the direction of the gun barrels and probability programs.

This being true then mech would have an advantage over a battle tank the main being more than 1 dimensional movement. a tank can only move forwards and backwards and turn. This would allow (assuming pretty epic joint speed) the ability for the mech to dodge all/most incoming fire vie side step, jump, yadda yadda. Through computer intervention, how difficult this would make piloting a mech, I do not know as the computer would take control randomly.

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by LuciusSummers

Assuming the general increase in computer power and the innovation of quantum processing then there comes a point where all projectile paths can be calculated.

Even beam weapons could be tracked from the direction of the gun barrels and probability programs.

This being true then mech would have an advantage over a battle tank the main being more than 1 dimensional movement. a tank can only move forwards and backwards and turn. This would allow (assuming pretty epic joint speed) the ability for the mech to dodge all/most incoming fire vie side step, jump, yadda yadda. Through computer intervention, how difficult this would make piloting a mech, I do not know as the computer would take control randomly.

Against that level of computational power you are probably better off going with disposable drone gun platforms rather than assuming that you are going to be able to dodge the return fire via side stepping or jumping. Especially if the enemy is able to back track your position in real time and is using beam weapons to fire back... your just not likely to have enough time to maneuver meaningfully under those preconditions to matter.

[LuciusSummers]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

Against that level of computational power you are probably better off going with disposable drone gun platforms rather than assuming that you are going to be able to dodge the return fire via side stepping or jumping. Especially if the enemy is able to back track your position in real time and is using beam weapons to fire back... your just not likely to have enough time to maneuver meaningfully under those preconditions to matter.

Well lets be honest disposable drones would also kick the nine bells out of tanks as well. As such not sure it helps the tanks vs mech choice.

And I did say assuming that the speed of maneuverability was there. That being the major assumption. Potentially using an optical computer however the reaction time could be close to light speed.

True against beam weapons this defense would be considerably less useful although a fairly smart program could just try and keep the barrel of the gun away so dodging before the beam is fired.
But the split side of the coin is beam weapons are considerably less powerful than the slug HEAT/Nuke/AM warhead so it may be feasible using specialist anti beam armor to make a mech resilient to that form of attack.

Since computers are advancing this fast i just thought this was the best way of mechs beating tanks for utility realistically. Only slight hand wave on the fact that the gyros would have to be capable of providing a lot of torque to get the machine to react that fast. Though with some breakthroughs in material and engineering science that may be possible.

With the above a mech could dance its way behind a tank and shoot it in the rear or top where the armor is more vulnerable. (Or TBH just carry a plant-able grenade) so the fact it carries a smaller weapon on average would be less of an issue. Also a more rapid firing rifle-esque weapon would be more efficient at mech killing than a main cannon as it would put more projectiles in the air. Yes you could create a tank with a very rapid firing but lighter gun but then you could also equip mechs with riot shields to take out such places so it becomes a rock vs paper competition.

I doubt a tank would ever leave the battle-field completely they are just too much of a good design. If nothing else they can always be fielded as mobile artillery. But a good dodge could lead to realistic mechs being worth while to field.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by copeab

The rifle can be much more powerful than anything (short of nukes) mounted in an arm, which is a significant benefit itself. About a decade ago I would have agreed that an arm-mounted weapon was superior to a hand-held weapon, but I've changed my mind.

The problem with a hand-mounted weapon is that it requires having a hand, and a hand is big, complex, expensive, unreliable, and imprecise compared to, say, a socket that can equally well mount multiple weapon types. It will be able to change weapons faster, but that's of limited value. A hand might be useful if you want a multipurpose arm that can do other sorts of labor, but such an arm requires an actuator setup that's unnecessary on a pure weapon arm, and thus also adds weight.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem with a hand-mounted weapon is that it requires having a hand, and a hand is big, complex, expensive, unreliable, and imprecise compared to, say, a socket that can equally well mount multiple weapon types. It will be able to change weapons faster, but that's of limited value. A hand might be useful if you want a multipurpose arm that can do other sorts of labor, but such an arm requires an actuator setup that's unnecessary on a pure weapon arm, and thus also adds weight.

I can live with the extra cost and weight of an arm and hand since it gives greater utility.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by LuciusSummers

Even beam weapons could be tracked from the direction of the gun barrels and probability programs.

Assuming you can see the gun barrel. Or in the case of lasers, the focusing array, which isn't guaranteed even if the weapon is right in front of you.

A shield that is opaque except at the moment of firing and then only in the wavelength of the weapon would not only prevent prediction of the laser path, but also protect the laser from countermeasures designed to cook the internals.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Molokh

You can shoot with a longarm over a corner, especially if a camera is mounted on it instead of a scope (which is reasonable).

Again if you can fire it in that fashion then you need servos in the arms to be able to take the stress of fireing it in that postion and not braced against the main mass of the mecha.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by copeab

I can live with the extra cost and weight of an arm and hand since it gives greater utility.

Sure but that is the thing, mecha have lots of things that add extra cost and weight for no increase in utility in performing any one action, but being able to do many things margionaly well.

This broad if not remarkable utility might be enough in some situations, but it will do everything poorly compared to a purpose build design. So in the tanks roll the mecha loses every time, but it can also lose to a backhoe while a tank can not compete with a backhoe in any fashion.