Can angels serve Princes, or demons serve Archangels?

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by JCD

FWIW, Lilith is ALWAYS an equal opportunity employer.

No, she doesn't hire anyone. Everything is a contract with an independent contractor.

[Whitelaughter]

Habbalah would insist that angels do serve DPs...

Since being a demon breaks an angels' Heart, and strips all attunements and Rites, it would be hard for a demon to meaningfully be a Servitor of an Archangel.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

And the Word of Loopholes gets some Essence. (The Game, or Freedom?)

The Game, I'm quite sure. There's one justice for the like and another for the unliked, and the unliked don't get to use loopholes.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

No, she doesn't hire anyone. Everything is a contract with an independent contractor.

How is that not 'hiring' someone? It is just a matter of duration, not the principle which is 'can DP get 'service' from Angels'?

And frankly, if Lilith grabbed a major Geas 6 from me as an angel, I'd probably be giving her a lot of 'freebies' just to keep her from pulling the trigger on that particular Geas, whatever my 'official' position in service.

See Furfur as an example of this, albeit on the Hellish side. Lilith gets a lot more mileage out of geases than Lilim do.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by JCD

How is that not 'hiring' someone? It is just a matter of duration, not the principle which is 'can DP get 'service' from Angels'?

She does not create Hearts, and therefore does not have Servitor, which is the Celestial equivalent of hiring, as in creating an employer/employee relationship. Rather, she deals entirely with independent contractors, who are not her employees, in the same way that when you go consult e.g. a lawyer, they are not your employee in the same sense as when you e.g. hire a store clerk.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

She does not create Hearts, and therefore does not have Servitor, which is the Celestial equivalent of hiring, as in creating an employer/employee relationship. Rather, she deals entirely with independent contractors, who are not her employees, in the same way that when you go consult e.g. a lawyer, they are not your employee in the same sense as when you e.g. hire a store clerk.

Superiors: Lilith doesn't say anything about Lilith not creating Hearts. It does say she doesn't accept permanent Servitors, which is not quite the same thing... but where would somebody keep an Infernal Heart that Lilith created for him, and just how many Geasa/6 does Lilith hold over him in return?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Superiors: Lilith doesn't say anything about Lilith not creating Hearts. It does say she doesn't accept permanent Servitors, which is not quite the same thing... but where would somebody keep an Infernal Heart that Lilith created for him, and just how many Geasa/6 does Lilith hold over him in return?

A Servitor of a Superior is a Celestial who has had a Heart made for them by that Superior. If Lilith has no Servitors, she doesn't create Hearts. I'm having some difficulty locating a citation just now.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

She does not create Hearts, and therefore does not have Servitor, which is the Celestial equivalent of hiring, as in creating an employer/employee relationship. Rather, she deals entirely with independent contractors, who are not her employees, in the same way that when you go consult e.g. a lawyer, they are not your employee in the same sense as when you e.g. hire a store clerk.

This only works if your definition of 'Servitor' = Heart.

From what I understand, Lilith has mansions in Switzerland with staff...and those staff have been there for YEARS. They are madly devoted to her, have no other prospects, are constantly in her debt and have NO desire to go anywhere else.

Yet Lilith doesn't have 'permanent' servants. Sure she doesn't.

I think this is more a matter of HER semantics and rationalizations. I'm sure she has people she's dealt with for centuries, who look out for her interests (like...every single Lilim out there) and she EXPECTS them to do so...but she doesn't want to provide a salary or healthcare and retain plausible deniability.

So in a legal sense, no permanent servitors. In an ACTUAL sense, she has something which is pretty darned similar.

In one of our games, my character wasn't 'hired' by Lilith. He got her to 'temporarily borrow' him from Belial and he 'rented' a stall for his Heart in her care to give him some freedom of movement. And in return, he was stuck shucking and jiving for her interests whenever he felt she would be interested...or else she might decide to end the contract.

'Free' is a four letter word and IMO Lilith has the effect of permanent servitors without the cost of them.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by JCD

This only works if your definition of 'Servitor' = Heart.

Yes. In In Nomine, a Servitor is a Celestial for whom a Superior has created a Heart. This is not the same thing as an employee, servant, or even a (non-capitalized) servitor if she chooses to call them that, but the setup is different and the entities that work for here are not Servitors in the In Nomine sense.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Yes. In In Nomine, a Servitor is a Celestial for whom a Superior has created a Heart. This is not the same thing as an employee, servant, or even a (non-capitalized) servitor if she chooses to call them that, but the setup is different and the entities that work for here are not Servitors in the In Nomine sense.

Explicitly, specifically not so - all demons, except for Free Lilim, are or at some point were Servitors, yet the vast majority of demons do not have Hearts because they are not sent to Earth.

Also, all imps and gremlins are Servitors, and by RAW it is never worth giving a demonling a Heart - they come back downstairs if they defy their purpose anyway.