Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I wonder how the various religions and sects deal with 'ghosts.'

For a future Europe, I'd have guessed Muslim dominated, not atheist. Of course, I'm not intimately familiar with THS, so I don't know if the demographic trends have changed radically....

They would have to change radically to achieve a "Muslim dominated Europe" in the first place. Really, that "Eurabia" meme is way overblown.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

They would have to change radically to achieve a "Muslim dominated Europe" in the first place. Really, that "Eurabia" meme is way overblown.

Ah, don't kill my hopes.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Well, for the outside observer as well for the actual ghost there seems to be no real change in personality apart from understandable pychological effects resulting from becoming an infomorph and residing within a shell or computer. This will count for a lot, and will make questions about the soul more awkward.

Nah, that's just part of the magic handwaving inherent within TS.

After all, even if you have that magic personality copy at that one point in time, the fact that that magic ghost is no longer in a physical body, with the chemical and assorted other inputs which are part and parcel of being in a body, means that you aren't getting any human or understandable psychological response from that infomorph from that point in time forward.

At least if you put the magic personality in a magic identical clone you'll get an understandable human heir, but that's a whole lot of magic under the guise of technology.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Well, for the outside observer as well for the actual ghost there seems to be no real change in personality apart from understandable pychological effects resulting from becoming an infomorph and residing within a shell or computer. This will count for a lot, and will make questions about the soul more awkward.

I think it's misleading to say that there is no observed change for the ghost. The relevant viewpoint is that of the person contemplating being unloaded. And what that person will experience is a final loss of consciousness, not followed by any waking.

Ghosting is actually a technology for transferring memories from one person to another. And this is surely a familiar experience for AIs, and perhaps for ghosts (if ghosting is based on theoretical understanding and not just brute force simulation). If Alpha's memory files can be copied and sent to Beta, then Beta can remember proving a theorem in memetics, or guiding a cybershell through combat. But it follows from this that memory is not a reliable criterion of personal identity—which indeed is already clear: a shadow remembers being an organic person, but it was not that person and does not have any of their actual memories; and almost certainly simulated memories can be synthesized and implanted in AIs. If you destructively analyze my brain, and use the information gained to synthesize memories of being me, and implant them in an AI, that AI will remember being me, and if it had no previous memories of anything else, it will not remember being anything other than me—but that is not decisive for an AI's identity.

Indeed the very concept of personal identity may not apply to an AI, or at least not in the way in which it applies to an organic being.

Bill Stoddard

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Nah, that's just part of the magic handwaving inherent within TS.

After all, even if you have that magic personality copy at that one point in time, the fact that that magic ghost is no longer in a physical body, with the chemical and assorted other inputs which are part and parcel of being in a body, means that you aren't getting any human or understandable psychological response from that infomorph from that point in time forward.

At least if you put the magic personality in a magic identical clone you'll get an understandable human heir, but that's a whole lot of magic under the guise of technology.

You're missing the point that the whole ghost-running process is the emulation of a human mind, complete with (digital) biochemistry and all.

Besides, changes in biochemistry while alive give pretty impressive changes in personality, more noticeable than the differences between organic and digital minds. Should we be filing inheritance papers three times per menstrual cycle, each time we sleep less than we should, and each time we fall in love?

[Pomphis]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Besides- the soul isn't copied or transferred.

Who knows ? IMO belief in an immortal and transferable soul would actually help acceptance of uploading.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Pomphis

Who knows ? IMO belief in an immortal and transferable soul would actually help acceptance of uploading.

Not really, since it is not known what happens to it under what circumstances. Are xoxes parallel reincarnations or duplicate souls? Etc.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

After all, even if you have that magic personality copy at that one point in time, the fact that that magic ghost is no longer in a physical body, with the chemical and assorted other inputs which are part and parcel of being in a body, means that you aren't getting any human or understandable psychological response from that infomorph from that point in time forward.

Standard answer for the setting; the ghost program models all brain functions - including brain chemistry. After all, there wouldn't be much point in modelling brain functions that didn't include the chemistry. The interface between the ghost software and the shell or virtual avatar's control and feedback processes transforms whatever the shell or avatar receives as inputs into brain inputs.

Yes, there are questions arising here about body chemistry impinging on the brain. (Neural signals are conceptually much easier.) Whether these questions are enough to suggest that the ghost is totally incapable of human-like functions and responses is, I'd say, an open question.

(I do suspect that TS underestimates the complexity required for a high-res human brain model program; I'd guess that complexity 8 would be more reasonable than 7.)

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Molokh

You're missing the point that the whole ghost-running process is the emulation of a human mind, complete with (digital) biochemistry and all.

Besides, changes in biochemistry while alive give pretty impressive changes in personality, more noticeable than the differences between organic and digital minds. Should we be filing inheritance papers three times per menstrual cycle, each time we sleep less than we should, and each time we fall in love?

Not at all, that chaotic chemical response which is based on changes and stimuli in our environment is a major part of what makes for human personalities, taking that away, or putting in a programmed response for that chemical response, means you can only ever have a shadow of what that personality was when the magic copy was made.

Not to mention that the programmed change would be way more than just three times per menstrual cycle, not even getting into sugar, chocolate and caffeine boosts, at least with every woman I've know. *grin*

Is it sunny out?, rainy?, did the barometer drop?, sleep well?, wake up funny?, feeling the burn from yesterday's workout?, feeling slothful from that overindulgent dessert?, etc., any personality which doesn't reflect changes in stimuli and the environment is greatly less than human.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not at all, that chaotic chemical response which is based on changes and stimuli in our environment is a major part of what makes for human personalities, taking that away, or putting in a programmed response for that chemical response, means you can only ever have a shadow of what that personality was when the magic copy was made.

Not to mention that the programmed change would be way more than just three times per menstrual cycle, not even getting into sugar, chocolate and caffeine boosts, at least with every woman I've know. *grin*

Is it sunny out?, rainy?, did the barometer drop?, sleep well?, wake up funny?, feeling the burn from yesterday's workout?, feeling slothful from that overindulgent dessert?, etc., any personality which doesn't reflect changes in stimuli and the environment is greatly less than human.

I know that changes are significan't. But I'm pointing out that some changes are more significant than the the changes resulting from the transfer to a digital medium. And yet people talk about Ghosts being heirs, but do not consider people to be their own heirs after things like cyclic changes, getting drunk, getting less sleep etc.